Possum Pouch

thanx for the Open Letter!

i exchanged a few emails with Joan
earlier back in the series. i could
not believe she could really be so
prejudiced as not to allow the
existence of degrees of excellence
in a genre not to her taste. needless
to say, she did not see the light...

but i will say, her essay shows the benefit
of a program i myself will not allow
any excellence whatsoever to--SPELLCHECK.

Right on, Dale! Thanks for calling attention (via the Poetics List) to these boring complaints & your much more interesting response. Oh, and congratulations on joining the Avant-Garde Division of the Poetry Establishment, whatever that means.

Yeah: Houlihan cooked her own coherent goose fat this time. Rock on, Dale!

Dale, you're a kind man for even taking the time to address such a silly and self-important poet (her column is "popular and provacative"?). It's not even based in Boston. She's in Concord, draining some sad suburbanites of their disposable income because she claims to have the inside track on becoming a successful poet.

Look at the online brochure:

"Is there a single most effective way to learn writing poetry? To develop and revise a poem? There is. A significant amount of writing craft and technique exists that is known only to a relatively small number of people. This craft and technique is not taught, not even at the college MFA level. Given that such craft and technique is best learned from the works of those poets who originated and/or utilized it most effectively, an examination of these works in detail will provide participants with the comprehensive knowledge they need to transform their own poems.

Is there a single best way to approach getting published? There is. Our poetry workshops focus on the editorial perspective, reader response, and instructor analysis to facilitate poetry publication."

I mean, that's just sad.

Obviously, the secrets she claims to possess have not done well by her.

I once passed a painter on the sidewalk who ranted while he filled the canvas. "Matisse, Kline, Grant Wood.... they have nothing on me! I am the greatest painter!" No one corrected, poor guy, but a few looked like they wanted to drop some change into his coffee can of brushes. But he was too scary.

Houlihan seems to be in a similar position.

After all, why attack FENCE magazine? What is she afraid of that she has to use those petty little put downs of poets who do not have her years of wisdom and experience in the poe-biz? Is it jealousy that scares he so, that makes her feel threatened?

As the other Possum once said, "Is it the poetry in Fence / that trips her self-defense?"

- db

Paul Valery put it best:
"Everything changes, except the avantgarde."

(Or the "post-avant," or the School of Noisiness, etc. . . .)

Great response. I always enjoy when critics, like Joan, pull out the old garden hose to try and clean up the "new" poetries. They look so silly.

Because we live in such a complex time, does it follow that poetry must be similarly complex?
Doesn't I.A. Richards' 'Imitative Fallacy' render that too tautological? Anyway, wouldn't an oppositional poetry strive for simplicity, for the colloquial modes and values of the Antipoem? Your lineage—Williams, Stein, Creeley, Bernstein—could be amended to: Williams, Parra, Rozewicz, Creeley, et al, in a tradition whose ideal would be the poem-as- accessible-to-an-average-reader. . . or at least written in an anti-elitist mode which is intended for a wider audience. (Mayakovsky: "I set my heel / on the throat of my own song. . .")

Fence Magazine solicited me to submit some poems to them, and I refused. . . . most of the poetry they publish seems to me to be elitist, intended deliberately for a coterie of initiates who wish to remain holier than thou in the Mallarmean sense: "Everything that wishes to remain holy must surround itself with mystery" is the commandment you "post-avants" in the School of Noisiness must never disobey. . . . And so you gird-guard your work with difficulties and densities and obscurities intended to keep the unholy, the masses, far away. . . Why? According to you, because the zeitgeist demands it. . . . The age demands it. (A couplet by Ernest Hemingway comes to mind: "And in the end the age was handed / The sort of shit that it demanded.")

All the other comments posted here support your position. . . . I hope there's room for an alternative view.

Bill, of course there's room for alternate views. And I've got no problem with simplicity. But this meaning vs. meaningless, coherence vs. its opposite debate is just too useless to continue. A poem functions by virtue of its own evidence. The poem I think is indifferent to issues of simplicity or complexity. Its an enironment unto itself. A living thing. To address it other is reductive and wastes a lot of time. Hence, Houlihan can only sputter without ever reaching any true depth--she can't so it seems accept the evidence of the poem. So she stretches it into quibbles with "meaning."

Thanks, everyone, for your terrific notes....

Doesn't your argument in favor of complexity just reiterate and echo what Eliot wrote back in 1921: "It appears likely that poets in our civilization, as it exists at present, must be difficult. Our civilization comprehends great variety and complexity, and this variety and complexity, playing upon a refined sensibility,
must produce various and complex results. The poet must become more and more comprehensive, more allusive, more indirect, in order to force, to dislocate if necessary, language into his meaning."

——The "refined" souls who publish in Fence certainly obey that dictum, indirectly forcing the dislocations of language into a lack of meaning. Such purism is its own reward, I guess. . . . (according to adamant right-wing Christian conservatives, only a "remnant" will or can be saved when the Rapture occurs. . . .)

And what would WC Williams say to Eliot above? Certainly Williams presents "variety and complexity", but in a diction and voice accessible to a reader who hasn't been theorified, hasn't been initiated into the rituals and intricacies of some supposedly Avant tradition.

"The poem is an environment unto itself"? Is that what used to be called 'autotelic'? Is that what Gottfried Benn meant back in the 1920s when his ideal was to write "the absolute poem, the poem without faith. The poem without hope, the poem addressed to no one, the poem made of words which you assemble in a fascinating way". . . . ('Poesie pure' is another applicable term from the old days.)

"Accept the evidence of the poem"?
——that reminds me of an aphorism by Juan Ramon Jimenez:
"One must cultivate above all the will to reject."

Bill, maybe you should check an issue of Skanky Possum to see what you're dealing with. Also, WCW's work from the 1920s, Kore in Hell, Spring and All, etc, is some of the most radical prose writing of the century, comparable, though from another direction, to Stein.

I don't know how "refined" the souls are at Fence. And that magazine doesn't need me to defend it. I'm just amazed by the failure of imagination when it comes to critical discussions of poetry. Usually, I'd prefer to use specific poems and examples. But what's the point. You seem to have an agenda to promote.

Because I don't agree with you, I have an "agenda"? Why agenda? What's wrong with "opinion"?

In my opinion, or agenda, Houlihan isn't your real problem, anyway. . . . She's just a strawperson you've propped up to take easy potshots at. . . .

Your real problem is Wislawa Szymborska . . . and Tanikawa Shintaro, and Carol Ann Duffy and Sharon Olds and Billy Collins and other poets around the globe who through their mastery of the Antipoem are able to reach a wide readership. . .

The tradition of the Antipoem is just as viable as that of your two competing camps, your School of Noisiness and your School of Quietude, those mirror realms. The Antipoem is the third way, the alternative to your stale either/or.

Those in the Antipoet tradition would include Mayakovsky, Brecht, Parra, late Neruda, late Desnos, Prevert, WC Williams, Rozewicz, Herbert, and other Eastern European poets, early Ungaretti, much of Moore and Bishop, more of Creeley than you might admit, Hans Magnus Enzenberger, etcet etcet, the list could go on and on to include poets from every major language. . . .

The Antipoem refuses to fit into the binary us-against-them system set up by both of you, you SoN's and SoQ's.

You may be on the right side of Fence magazine and J.D. McClatchy on the wrong, but I don't want to be on either.

Bill, fine, opinion. Whatever. Houlihan set herself up for my comments by including my magazine as an example of something she loathes. Collins et al can keep to their hordes of adoring fans. I don't care. There's no fence as I see it. No first way second or third. Poem. Anti-poem. It doesn't interest me. There are individual practices of art. Again, it's the integrity of each poem that counts. Diverse responses within occasions of forces supplied by the culture we live in. I'm not interested in academic demarcations, party lines, etc. You kick ass or you don't.

I don't believe Billy Collins or Sharon Olds has anything to do with WCW or the late Neruda. Or Mayakovsky. This is not the "anti-poem," it is the "lite" poem. It is nice to know that the late Bill Knott is still around, though! I used to read his books in the 1970s when I first started reading poetry.

It’s disheartening to hear Bill Knott resort to the default charge of elitism: i.e., that experimental poets “gird-guard [their] work with difficulties and densities and obscurities intended to keep the unholy, the masses, far away.”  This has become such a ready-to-hand dismissal, and it’s frustrating because it’s so patently not the case—or if it is the case, it is yet more the case with the rarified philosophy of “mastery” espoused by people like Houlihan in her brochure (“Is there a single most effective way to learn writing poetry? To develop and revise a poem? There is. A significant amount of writing craft and technique exists that is known only to a relatively small number of people”).  Fence and Skanky Possum are no more or less guilty of elitism than Poetry or APR or any other establishment journals.  Certainly there are many wonderful poems that can be “gotten” by any reasonably literate reader on one reading; many of them, in fact, are by “experimental” poets, and appear in magazines like Fence and SP.  On the other hand, there is plenty of “mainstream” verse out there that presents every bit as much of an intimidating and alienating challenge to the casual reader as anything by Jackson Mac Low or Joan Retallack.  The difference is that such verse flaunts its elitism in the form of institutionally approved (e.g., “academic”) cultural capital, dressed up as it were in respectable Sunday vest and loafers, whereas (some of) the poems that Houlihan and Knott contemn are at least upfront about their own difficulty: that is, it does not as often disguise itself behind the facade of an accessible discursive form.

Like it or not, Fence appears to have become mainstream critics’ example of choice of a “typical” avant-garde publication (ironic, considering Fence’s idealistic goal of bridging the divide between camps, as per its title).  Those who charge it with inaccessibility, however, should acknowledge that one reason it has become possible to use it as such an example is its visibility: it is carried routinely by Borders and other large chain booksellers, and although I don’t know its sales figures, I’m guessing that it has quickly risen in popularity to rival some of the most popular and long-running poetry journals out there.  This can only mean that many people find it, well, accessible.  As Jim Behrle has pointed out, the fear of the opposition seems to be less that this evil experimental poetry will cause harm and confusion to the masses than that it will rather capture their attention more effectively than the establishment’s own tired, recycled product: that the New poetry will eat the Old.  This could only be a danger if there were, indeed, something in that New poetry that more than a few readers found appealing.  Reactionary critics ignore the fact of that appeal, and the conditions that make it appealing, at the risk of their own coherence.

The problem with Fence (and similar publications) is not that it is elitist, but that it is not elitist enough. I've been reading too many tired quasi-surrealist prose-poems, often indistinguishable from one another, in such publications. I'd like to see editors justify what they publish by claiming that it is good work, not by resorting to some argument about what America needs in today's cultural climate.

And I'm all for Mallarmé, as well.

Bill Knott: Many of us "post-avants" (whatever that really means) dearly love many of the poets you mention as exemplars of the Anti-poem. Many of us like your own poetry quite a bit, too. But in making such a polemical case for the "Anti-poem" tradition as formal and conceptual antidote to the "experimental" one, you seem to fall into the same reifications (a terrible word, can't think of another right now) you claim beset the "avant-garde."

Poetry is vast and manifold, as I know you must believe, and it can't be contained by any particular mode or style. Like in painting and sculpture, theatre and music, one has a wide --ever expanding-- spectrum of possibility, and different poets (different reading and writing communities, if you will) explore different ranges of the spectrum; some poets, even, are able to move back and forth across the spectrum and show great variety in their work.

The spectrum is mysterious. We place our hands on our chest and it looks like we are flying into ourselves. The problem is that a critic like Houlihan (her article is, frankly, an inept case of an argument that can be more competently made) wants to snip off part of the range, dismiss it out of hand. That's not good-- not in music, painting, poetry, or astronomy. Parra is great. Pessoa is great. Palmer is great. Etc. There is matter, and anti-matter, and dark matter, and who knows what else.

No?

Kent

Dale, first, thanks for providing the occasion to enliven blog-talk. And I agree, it's great to see anything at all from Bill Knott, who, as Saint Geraud in the 70s, was an original questioner of poetic "authority" -- Bill, do you know Kent Johnson?

Elitism, though, Kasey, isn't the most interesting part of this dialogue for me -- I mean, I agree with Dale when he says that [we] either kick ass or not, and that schools and classifications are besides the point.

I'd say it slightly differently -- no matter what any of us say, or think, about poetry is secondary: the only goal or responsibility of the poet is to to write the poem. Anything that doesn't lead to that or generate that is besides the point.

I went back and read all of Houlihan's articles and actually liked them a lot. I mean, she's simplistic, but if that were the criterion, most of what gets said about poetry and poetics today would disappear immediately. At least she's asking the questions: "What determines quality in poems?" and "How do we determine whether an individual poem kicks ass or not?" Those are important questions. Her answers are silly, but at least she's asking.

To me, Frank O'Hara had the last word about these issues in *Personism* -- "but how can you really care if anybody gets it, or gets what it means, or if it improves them. Improves them for what? for death? Why hurry them along?" Similarly, Walter Benjamin wrote that no poem was intended for the reader.

Meanwhile, 87 billion dollars . . . for a diversionary war that created the conditions it was meant to address . . . from an unelected president whose offensive blather is spinning completely out of control . . . anything that taps into that particular surrealism, in poetry, would be welcome.

I opened up a collection of Bukowski
at random &

this is a fact

in the company of fools
we relax upon
ordinary embankments,
enjoy bad food, cheap
drink,
mingle with the men and
ladies from
hell.
in the company of fools
we throw days away like
paper napkins.

in this company
our music is loud and our
laughter
untrue.

we have nothing to lose
but our selves.

join us.
we are now
almost
the entire
world.

God bless
us.

I haven't had a long time to go over all of these comments, Dale's piece, etc. -- can't believe he even bothered to write her, frankly, she' unreadable.

But I did send her this email, which pulls quotes from one of her essays (the prose intro and extro) but uses her own "poem of the day" as a sample of bad poetry and not the stuff she herself used:

"It seems that not only are these words not best (or worst), they are not even among a specifically selected few. All word choices seem equally good (or bad) for this poem because the poem does not want to add up to anything, does not want to become anything, it only wants to resist becoming, to remain a baby in the continuum of its utterance. Therefore:

As Jimmie hears his cue: "The King of Croon,"
how does the fiddle do it? All seats,
--postures, giving muscle to melody--
empty. Even wallflowers crack their stone.

Tension dissolves in tone. Three short
revive and fling toward heaven. Only slaps
from bull strings land them back on the map.
A guileless mother hums as baby snorts

in her arm. The dream settles like beer foam
with a long bow that carries the weight of bones.
Reunion after exile. The sweet tune.
Strokes introduce the path back home.

How does the fiddle do it? Dead feet.
Then the trickster sustains our sympathy.

Why not? How does this version differ from the original? Only in its word order. And since the words don't count, since they don't have to be best, better, bad or in any way related to any potential meaning, my poem is as “good” as the original. In fact, I would argue my poem is the original—is, in fact, better than the original, because clearly this poem wants to be in quatrains! It wants to have the only interesting detail and the only character in the poem at the beginning, not the end. It is exactly the same poem, albeit with different word order—but neither set of words makes any difference to the meaning."

I added the bit about the quatrains and the interesting detail because, alas, I htink it's true.

A lot of people are deriding & dismissing Houlihan (as poet, as stylist, etc): not many are actually grappling with the substance of her sharp funny jabs.

Henry Gould

p.s. I never liked the phrase "kick ass" : it reminds me of car commercials for some reason. Poets should never resort to this phrase in future.

I LIKE the phrase "kick ass" in this context, actually, because I think it gets to the bed-rock question, for all its crudity. I think Mr. Arras's critique is pretty cogent as well. Where is the substance in Houlihan's essays, anyway? I haven't found it yet.

Car commercials are the poetry of the future, Henry.

The ugly new car commercial poetry eat your pretty old Dante poetry!

[teeth bared, hands curled like claws in scary attacking gesture:] RRRAAARRRR!

Ahem. Back to the matter at hand, I brought up elitism only because both Bill Knott & Joan Houlihan invoke that notion, but it‘s funny how the idea of defending experimental poetry against it sets off alarms: I agree that a lot of the poetry in Fence is soggy and uninteresting, but to say that this has something to do with it being either too elitist or not elitist enough is beside the point. The fact remains that its “accessibility” or lack thereof can only be imagined by critics like Houlihan in such terms.  I still think Jim Behrle has the core insight here: these critics are scared.  They invoke elitism and similar concepts that situate the poet in an open/closed relation to an idealized, absolute fantasy of General Audience, because they are themselves deeply invested in laying claim to that fantasy construct.  A quick glance at the essays produced in any freshman literature course on poetry at a typical college will disabuse anyone of the belief that mainstream verse of the kind that Houlihan champions is somehow more transparent, “reader-friendly,” than the “experimental” poetry in Fence and other journals.  It is, of course, if the readers have been carefully indoctrinated for years in precisely the reading strategies and value-systems required to elicit the correct response; but to claim that these strategies and values are “natural” is nonsense.  For a considerable percentage of college-age readers, Yeats’ “The Second Coming,” any given poem by Anthony Hecht, and Lyn Hejinian’s My Life are pretty much on the same level of difficulty (though that difficulty will manifest itself differently from example to example).  What the Houlihans want is control over which apparatus of interpretation and/or appreciation gets set up as the official one. And the clear implication there is that there can and should be only one.

Poets like Billy Collins, of course, come as close as any to achieving the level of transparent meaning that Houlihan says she values; it’s significant that these poets are the other half of the group that Houlihan attacks.  I don’t think much of the Collins-category of poets myself, but it’s interesting to note what they and the Fence category have in common: the ability to interest non-specialist readers. Collins appeals because he is entertaining and easy; the Fence poets because they are weird and “trippy.” For better or worse (for better and worse), these poets are marketable.  This is what makes them threatening both to the Houlihans and the diehard avant-gardists.

I don’t have a conclusion to draw from all this.  I just want to point out how absurd it is to argue that the poems in Fence are inaccessible, that their accessibility is what Houlihan really fears.  As Jonathan points out, this doesn’t necessarily or even usually make the poetry in Fence good, but if we’re going to ask questions about what does make contemporary poetry “good” or “bad,” Houlihan’s questions are not the right ones.

Thanks for these kick ass posts. (Sorry, Henry, writing on the fly here--do you agree with Auden that poets should dress like business men?). BKS is right, I probably shouldn't have addressed Houlihan's unreadable piece (disagreeing with Joe and Henry--nothing of value there I see because whatever of interest may be embedded is that--stuck in deep mud). But Hoa and I were having conversations around the meaning vs. non-meaning argument after the new Best Am Po came out, and after reading a recent article in Harper's about the new edition of the Norton Anthology. There seems mostly to be some kind of turf war within the academy, and a battle for market shares, to put it in biz terms. So Houlihan's piece brought up a lot of things we were thinking anyway. What does she know about Skanky Possum anyway?

I see poets like medieval artisans. We should know our critical and creative tools. Use them. Address diverse experiences.

Yeah, well, I'm sputtering now....
Dale

Terrific responses from a number of people (except: Bill Knott: how can Collins and Olds be compared with any international poetic mode? as I see it, central to their appeal is that they're stubbornly provincial, American, suburban poets, and confirm those values as held by their readership...) The problem with this damn debate, as it constantly reappears in different venues, is that many of those involved are fighting about power and the social under the guise of an argument about aesthetics (not that the two are unrelated...) I went and read Houlihan's ridiculous columns and that sad workshop ad, which differs from the claims of vanity-press shills only in being less honest. Work which one dosen't understand is threatening; and that reaction will shift registers from cognitive dissonance to social anxiety very quickly when one's "profession" is involved. The ability to admire, take pleasure from work which one can't write about from a position of mastery is crucial--if one cultivates it, it becomes central to one's reading experience; if one dosen't, I suspect, one ends up hardening into a Houlihan......

This is a great run of blogging, I must say.

Does anyone recall Nick Hornsby's somewhat infamous review of Radiohead a couple of years back in the New Yorker? In it he argued that the band was getting too far out there musically and lyrically and should return to writing albums that were accessible to a larger audience. Anything else was unnacceptable given Thom Yorke's talents as a pop songsmith. It didn't matter to the critic that they were making their best music to date and that it was still selling well. I think my response at the time was "But who cares? He's doing what he wants to, what he can do, and what he cares to do." Then I thought "Guys who used to work at used record stores shouldn't be writing music reviews." I'd have to explain that at length another time.

Best,
Mike C.

"Hardening into a Houlihan"? Well, there's an image that appeals to all five senses.

It's striking to watch everyone (myself included) jumping into this case more as psychologists, trying to figure out the perpetrator's mindset and motivations, as opposed to actually looking at the victimless crime. I know it would be a jump of goodwill to take her critique seriously enough to refute its charges, but it could be quite effective . . .

Re: the "the experimental poets are going to steal away both of your readers" argument. The whole market-share analogy I think is a little off. I think the lack of a market share is part of what feeds the vehemence. In more popular arts, it seems that if a singer, novelist, filmmaker isn't critically prestigious, he or she has the consolation of a market, or potential market. Margot Tennenbaum: "your reviews aren't that good." Eli Cash: "yeah, but the sales are." Almost seems like an agreement: Gwen Stefani, you get the cash. Cat Power, you get the reviews. Beck, you get both. Without the sales, it seems the only currency is prestige, and if (as David Antin and Charles Bernstein say in their interview book I'm nosing through) innovation arises from failure--that new tools are invented when the old ones don't work--it seems the mere existence of Bad Mickey Television Sock or whatever experimental journal is itself a critique of mainstream poetics. If Houlihan is trying to counter this implied argument that her poetics are no longer valid, then it seems very likely she'll try to show that these new tools don't work at all. That they are, as the layman suspects, hollow tricks. Obviously, people here aren't convinced, but I wonder if the stray English major or high school teacher will be, and Ms. Houlihan will consider it all a success. But I'm sure someone's composing a "Who's Afraid of Gertrude Stein" counterpiece right now.

Is there really a journal called Bad Mickey Television Sock?
 

Not yet.

I think what really bugs people is how efficiently Houlihan takes down sacred cows. Where BKS finds her "unreadable" I don't follow - is she too concise for your taste? Not prolix & patronizing enough? Her little essay on Langpo is classic demolition. Her critique of the bland & cliched accessible-poetics of a Billy Collins is right on. Her blast against the empty, aesthetically-null verbiage of such poems as represented in Fence was also a bull's-eye.

Does Bad Mickey Television Sock exist?

It does now.

http://badmickeytelevisionsock.blogspot.com/

Henry, JH is too discursive, too generalizing and dismissive to read with any sustained interest or enthusiasm. But she can share her opinions and write as she likes. It's the core argument, again, I want to draw attention to, and that I find fault with (besides the fact she probably hasn't even looked at a copy of our magazine): "meaning" vs. "meaninglessness." "Coherence vs. "Incoherence." "Simplicity" vs. "Complexity."

Poems present their own evidence and mostly poems are indifferent to these binaries. What we could talk about instead are the MFA programs generating bland, uninspired, formulaic writing from diverse backgrounds of instituionalized BLAH. (Again, you can't entirely blame a "program" for a disfunction evident at all levels of our society).

Fence manages to round up a lot of that Blah. But so do many other journals. And editors print poems for a variety for reasons. There are a lot of great poets out there working through different sets of problems. Unfortunately (or not) there are many more mediocre, careless and thoughtless people pushing their work too. Houlihan's piece creates a false reality. It's the desperate act of someone who wants to seem in the midst of things. She loves system, it seems, not poetry.

Dale

Dale, the fact that MFA programs & magazines of all stripes produce a lot of blaah does not counter the sting of various Houlihan arrows, ie. that the imitative obfuscation of much post-avantism actively discourages interpretation, or that the "accessibility" factor of Billy-Collins style work is not really of (aesthetic) value. Yes, she's using a blunt-instrument style of criticism; yet I consider it important & valuable that in doing so she points writers away from coterie mannerisms, toward some fundamental & longstanding literary values.

Dale,

I've been following this discussion with alot of interest and have to say your point about the binaries is excellent. Houlihan's range is super-narrow, she can't deal with poems that don't fit into the categories of "coherence" vs. incoherence", etc.

"Poems present their own evidence and mostly poems are indifferent to these binaries." I totally agree. Here's a good example of a poem that doesn't fit the Houlihan system, but is most definitely a poem (sorry about the formatting):

Have no

Nullarnee & Slavslatt

gris, gris, tenedor

(Ninakula, Ninakula)

forkyfull ort

Siwezi kusema Kiswahili!

Vipi? Nini? Nani? Ipi?

oaieyn as cooylyn

Faag eh!

And when it were a

�_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

Thanks for a great discussion!

Kurt

Kurt, I love this poem, especially the part about Icelandic chickens attacked by fleas at midnight. Here's one of mine:

BEFFLE

Gringo spiel ex-
trap -
you're -
late, late!

No I'm -

Ben Hare! Sheesh!

And here's one for Houlihan:

"Listen to the drool re-pouch!
It is a tingly piddle!"

(Phhhhffft)

"some fundamental & longstanding literary values" ? No

Thanks

What formulas could anyone suggest for such a thing? I want freedom

from the avant-garde and from

whatever Houlihan represents

or Billy Collins to use these dumb references.

Freedom to move forward by my nature toward whatever excellence I am capable of. You take a poem by ITS terms--failures too. Not formulas.

**

My positions are pretty clear. Packing for Chicago. Please come hear Skanky Possum co-editor Hoa Nguyen read there Saturday at 1 PM. Sponsored by the Chicago Poetry Project.

Dale

Dale, how do you "take a poem by ITS terms", exactly? I know you're busy, but I don't know how this is done. The fundamental values I think Houlihan pointed toward included the pleasure of "logopeia" (which is cancelled both by obfuscation & by cliche-accessibility, as she showed pretty amusingly.

Every intepretation takes a position - when you "take" a poem, you establish terms by which it is received. If you claim transparency ("ITS terms") and deny it to others, what does this accomplish? Why are Houlihan's comments any more formulaic than your own?

Henry,

I think what Dale is saying is that you take a poem by whatever its terms are even if the terms aren't clear or even there. I think that's pretty clear. Also, to move forward in freedom. I think that's what Skanky Possum is all about, you know, to "create a little flower is the labor of the ages" as he told Houlihan. How could anybody say it better than that? That was Blake. Also, "if you want specifics on these forces, find out yourself"--again, from Dale's kick-ass letter to Houlihan. "Educate yourself on the the diverse forms surrounding us." Isn't that enough?

Good luck in Chicago, Dale. May the "complex occasion of forces" be with you!

Kurt

So Kurt, is it possible to find fault with a piece of writing? Are all poems equally valuable? Should I leave off reading Shakespeare & spend more time with Rod McKuen? Should I try to find as much thought/feeling/meaning in a car commercial or a bad imitation of Celan, than in Celan? Is this what "on its own terms" means?

Poetry & poetry mags may be a little flower of the ages' labor; but I would defend good criticism too, rather than outlaw it or render it meaningless.

Henry, Pound was a great, generous and cantankerous reader of poems. Really, the model I prefer for making art and reading poems is that of the medieval artisan. In my case, if I write a review, say, I bring to that review all the tools in my kit at that moment. I listen to what the poem says and see how well it works according to what it claims vs. what it is. If it's so called experimental, I look at that, consider that particular tradition of poem making, and judge it by those terms as well perhaps as my own, which could be completely outside.

I'm just saying, you bring all of your self to a work, your own or another's. Anything short is not interesting. Nor is discursive writing. We'll explain ourselves into dust. We should seek instead an active intelligence--Houlihan lacks that, though you obviously disagree. But then, you seem to value more than I discursive writing. (Do you really find such discursiveness necessary and relevant?).

Anyway, my take is that "literary values" are not lasting, but transitory. They're what's at hand when you need them. It's mysterious. A great deal of mystery is involved, actually. But I think works do function by their own terms. Sometimes those terms are narrow and small minded. Sometimes they're great. But I try to deal with those terms.

It's funny. I've been writing reviews for a couple of years here in this pouch. I relate particular arguments according to the work at hand. There's been very little response to any of that. I write a quick letter to Houlihan and everyone has a great time diving into these generalities. I don't know if our conversations here are useful any longer. Perhaps it should turn to discursive vs. non-discursive approaches to critical writing. Explanation prevents movement.

Dale

Dale

Cocks and a Partridge

A Cock-Master bought a Partridge, and turn’d it among his Fighting-Cocks, for them to feed together. The Cocks beat the Partridge away from their Meat, which she lay’d the more to Heart, because it look’d like an Aversion to her purely as a Stranger. But the Partridge finding these very Cocks afterwards cutting one another to pieces, she comforted her self with this thought, that she had no reason to expect they should be kinder to her, than they were to one another.

The Moral.

‘Tis no wonder to find those People troublesom to Strangers, that cannot agree among themselves. They quarrel for the Love of quarrelling; and the Peace be broken, no matter upon what Ground, or with whom.

"Explanation prevents movement"! Yes!

Dale, before you go, *please* tell us how you take this poem, on what terms. Thanks!!!

Kurt

Have no

Nullarnee & Slavslatt

gris, gris, tenedor

(Ninakula, Ninakula)

forkyfull ort

Siwezi kusema Kiswahili!

Vipi? Nini? Nani? Ipi?

oaieyn as cooylyn

Faag eh!

And when it were a

�_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

Henry, I think the point Dale wants to make is that it doesn't matter what you read or write, there is no real value in making such binary decisions, that kind of thinking leads to things like wars. Every time you make a decision like that, you're saying something's better or worse, etc. So is it better to read Shakespeare than Rod McKuen (don't know this guy)? I think that's a question with a lot of answers, but none of them are really known. It's all kind of mysterious.

That kind of question sets up a "false reality", really.

Kurt

Dale, I think the back-and-forth that’s sprung up here is great!  I don’t think it’s any slight to your reviews that the “generalities” under discussion here have elicited so much response.  Obviously, people have something at stake on either side, and even if Henry, say, never agrees with, for instance, Jonathan, the “discursiveness” on both sides isn’t entirely useless: it helps to clarify our own positions for ourselves, or at least to throw into relief the areas where clarity is an impossibility and supply some meta-clarity in that regard.  For example, it may never become “clear” what values are the right ones for judging a work of poetry, but we can become relatively clear on what is separating us from those whose values differ from ours.

That’s the issue that really interests me here: not “are the poems in Fence good or not,” not “is Rod McKuen as good as Shakespeare or vice versa,” but “what is it that makes both me and Joan Houlihan interested in poetry, and yet keeps us from ever seeing eye-to-eye on the terms for that interest”?

That and pointing out that Houlihan really is a terrible critic even on her own terms.  I’m more puzzled by Henry’s repeated insistence that there is some merit to her specific argumentation than by his sympathy for an oppositional stance towards experimental verse in general.  If put to the task, I could come up with a lot more coherent criticism of the avant-garde than what she offers.

The Academickals want a nuanced consideration, contextualizing the groundbreaking verse of today within the fashionosophy of contemporary postpost-stopstoppism. The Poetickals want a nuanced impressionistic cloud-vapor critique, saluting their pioneering & inimitable Ways of Wording. Everybody, of course, wants positive feedback.

Houlihan is doing something else; she's satirizing the various slacknesses from the perspective of the Ignorant Reader.

Kasey, thanks for your insightful comments. I agree it's good at times to work through certain positions. Especially in public. By addressing discursiveness, I guess I'm urging a swiftness of thought over the kind of gamesmanship Houlihan and Henry, so it seems, prefer.

Kurt, I don't know where to begin with that poem.

Dale

I think there is a High Modernism identifiable as such, in contrast to a Low (which I'm terming the Antipoetic). . . .

Low is obviously easier to read-and-understand than High. . . .
And many important poets of the 20th century have chosen the Low approach. . . .

Here's Rozewicz: "The more intricate, ornate and surprising the poem's exterior, the more dubious is its interior, the lyrical event, which often fails to penetrate the ornaments fabricated by the poet."

——You can agree with that, or argue against it, but I don't think you can deny that many major poets of the past century evince a similar esthetic. . . .

Just as an illustrative question, I'd like to ask Jonathan Mayhew why certain Spanish-language poets get translated and others don't. Parra and Angel Gonzalez have had at least two "Selecteds" apiece published in English, whereas the equally great (or perhaps greater) poetry of Jose Lezama Lima hasn't been similarly widely translated. . . .
Why is that? I mean, I suppose it could be copyright problems, our insane embargo of Cuba, etc., but I would venture to guess it's because Lezama Lima's High Modernist style (or HM content, the complexity of his metaphors and figurations) is much harder to translate than the Low Antipoetic of Parra and Gonzalez: less is lost in transferring the latter into English. Or is my reasoning nonsense. . ..

As for Olds and Collins, well, they sure don't write in a High Modernist mode, do they? In that sense, they're similar to Brecht and Szymborska et al. . . . Style is less important (not unimportant, but less important) than content to the Antipoet.

Sorry I can't respond to everyone who took the time and effort to consider my points which were (are) hurriedly and confusedly gathered. . .

Octavio Paz: "The history of modern poetry is that of the oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious temptation."

——Which I translate as the oscillation between Low Modernism (the Antipoetic) and High Modernism.

The religious temptation? I'll quote it again, since no one responded to it from before: here's the formula, the dictate as set down by Mallarme:
"Everything that wishes to remain holy must surround itself with mystery."

——For mystery read: difficulty, obscurity, etc., pronounced as such by Eliot in 1921, which none of the comments mentioned. Am I delusional in thinking that the Open Letter to Houlihan simply parrots the same position promulgated by Eliot back then? There are no similarities at all? The clarioncall for difficulty and complexity is different now than then????

To the extent that poetry manifests the High Modernist mode, it is attempting to "remain holy," cloistered, sancrosanct, autotelic, separate from the empirical everyday world, in a puristic world of its own where the New Critics of the Yale Review (a typical SoQ mag) and the Denver Quarterly (a typical SoN mag, though you will probably disagree) can admire it from afar. . .

One more quote: this is Michael Hamburger describing the esthetic of Nicanor Parra:
"Parra's anti-poems are distinguished by their cultivation and penetration of ordinariness, by a diction deliberately quotidian. . . ."

Sorry, but I can't see much diff between the SoN's and the SoQ's: they're equally elitist, purist, mirror versions of the High Modernist mode. . . .

We need more poets like Parra and Brecht, more Low Moderns. . . .

"Kurt, I don't know where to begin with that poem."

Dale, why not?

Well, the reasons low modernists get translated are as Bill K. suggests. Angel González in my view is a detestable poet. I like Parra, but his influence has led to a deadly colloquialism in Latin American poetry. Surely this low modernist mode has seen better days, whether here or abroad.

The comparison between Collins and Brecht is far fetched. I wouldn't put those two in the same conversation. Because neither is high modernist? That doesn't make them similar in any other respect.

I guess a distinction can be made between the varying (and mixed) impulses to writing poetry--from what I've read of Billy Collins, there seems to be an action or an idea, and then he precedes to describe the above, and provide his take on it. Fine. I don't know if there's anything inherently wrong with the above impulse--perhaps Allen Grossman does the same, except instead of fusing a plain style with vapid thinking, Grossman fuses a little higher style (but still relatively clear) with what I think is visionary content. On the other hand, there's someone like Rosmarie Waldrop, who professes to write from a sort of nothingness, and says "I have no thoughts, so I have methods." So the poem is an exploratory act--the difficulty of the poem seems embedded in the process of its writing. It's not like she's cloaking in mystery what could otherwise be clear.

Collins probably PROCEEDS to recount events and ideas, etc. Geesh, I shouldn't try to sound smart.

interesting how the discussion moves in this here box...anyway, I think the idea of a poetics of say upper level clarity, lower level opacity or vice-versa, or faux-opacity, or for that matter faux-clarity, is, in a way, too dismissive of the overall universal applicability, and, perhaps, to some, the importance of Keats' old: Negative Capability...

"that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. This pursued through volumes would perhaps take us no further than this, that with a great poet the sense of Beauty overcomes every other consideration, or rather obliterates all consideration."

I mean doesn't a poem by an "anti-poet" or "low modernist" or SoQ or whatever have some of that sense, or strive towards that sense, of inhabiting the mystery in the whole of the piece...ie. how the (somewhat)narrative unfolding of a Simic poem functions to push the poem, in it's entirety, into NEG CAP while all the juxtaposition/parataxis/new sentence-dance-moves of My Life and whatnot have that NEG CAP in every line...or between every line....ah, or something...

In the County vein...this whole discussion has called to my mind a Pollack exhibit I saw 10 years ago in NYC. Never much of a fan I was fascinated to see all of his old journals & sketch books on display. They were packed with figure studies & still lifes that were close to photographic in their rendering. For me, at 18 it provided "a way into" his abstract work that had up until that point completely confounded me & as a result made me angry.

This idea that, poets of the (what are we calling them now?) post-avant-avant schoolitude are concerned with only making meaningless poems interests me the same way Pollack did after seeing his early works. Pollack went to school & learned the basics much like an aspiring poet can learn "how to write poetry" through an MFA program or a Houlihan-type seminar...in short, Pollack was the first to illustrate for me the idea of learning the rules before you break them. I imagine for Pollack the rules bored him after a point...while he could have spent his life exquisitely rendering bowls of fruit he had a desire to think outside of the contrived idea of "fine art". And the result was....well, we all saw the movie.

I am not saying that Fence or SP is packed with the future Pollack-poets of the world, but that the most interesting contemporary poets seems to write from an educated (I don't mean academia here...I think that many poets are naturally gifted with much of what creative writing courses claim to "teach") & highly skilled place with the acute awareness of what exactly they are writing against.

The idea that these poets just arbitrarily pick words and string them together as Joan suggests, reminds me of my early problems of Pollack..."Would it make any difference if he used red instead of yellow there?" "I could do that too...just give me a ladder and a shitload of paint." But after seeing his sketch books & journals I realized that Pollack was painting from a place beyond the standard issue understanding of what “art” is. But the idea that his years of schooling & practice did not play a huge part in the beauty and genius of his abstract work is ludicrous.

Had I NOT gone to that exhibit and seen Pollack's early studies I wonder if my adolescent feelings toward his work would have ever changed? I think they would have eventually...but I worry that Joan has fixed herself so severely in her stance of what is “correct” that she is no longer able to enter any poetry that strives to go beyond that set of limitations, and THAT is what makes her unable to see eye to eye with anyone not working within her idea of what poetry is, or should do. Pollack’s talent was his ability to use the very thing he wished to paint against to illustrate his point...great art requires not only an artist of great scope but also a public open to the experience of that all-inclusive vision.

Bill, the elitism argument is like the meaning vs. meaninglessness debate: a screen or, really, a deadend. I mean, in America, anybody that moves on with their thought at a level beyond the 8th grade can be viewed as an elitist. What if you imagined the highest intelligence you can and wrote to that instead of some abstract mass audience? Brecht was a great ideologue. He's never been a favorite poet of mine. I never cared for that missionary zeal of social conversion.

Is DH Lawrence a low or high modern? What about Blake for that matter?

I think about what you, Henry and others have said here, and it leads me to think that there can only be personal criteria or whatever for a life practice in art. Social or group demands for what a poem should be or isn't ("literary values") promotes personal limitations.

For what it's worth....

Dale

PS: Kurt, I'm not interested in that poem. B-C me if it's all that important....

Dale, your last post is reasonable and useful.

Art is one of the only places left where we can hope to be free of conformity.

Poetry is difficult. Even without all these entirely artificial isms and schisms clotting our thinking, poetry is not easy.

Joan Houlihan will go away. They always do. Eventually.

THE POSSUM THEORY OF POETRY

According to the "mind" of Dale "Oops-I-Almost-Said-Something-Intelligent" Possum, everything he and his self-serving circus of friends write is just as valuable as a child's sneeze of nasal-stuffed word balls onto a sheet of glue-coated paper.

It all reminds one of the many bogus and self-serving arguments of abstract expressionist parrots (looking to make a name) that went on for years in NYC even after it was demonstrated that chimps with hole-punched buckets could do every bit as well as ae "artists."

This bs is no different. It's pathetic. And now we have this monstrosity of un-language by the stupid Kurt:

Faag eh!

And when it were a

�_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

What manure! Hah! What kind of moron promotes this swill? The Possum Posse? Well, all I gotta say is:

DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS DALE?

DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU F**K POETRY IN THE ASS?

Go back and review your word slobbery, uh, Dale (named after Roy Roger's wife) and get a therapist to read it, and why you're at it, take these "theory" cretin buddies of yours, pack them into a few iron barrels, seal them with torches, and then depthcharge them into the Pacific, about 100 miles out.

Okay?

Tom Mazziotti will go away, too.

Dale, you just stick to the courage of your convictions. You and Hoa do good work. That's more than enough.

"Dale, you just stick to the courage of your convictions."

But what ARE his convictions??? Other than anti-someone else's convictions? That's what I keep trying to find out...

Dale won't tell me why he thinks the poem I posted here isn't worthy of response, or "interesting" so I can't figure out what he looks for, what are his "convictions" about a poem??

Still wondering....

"And now we have this monstrosity of un-language by the stupid Kurt"

Thanks.

I had to laugh at the open letter to Joan HulaHoop or whatever her name is, and the subsequent discussion is quite interesting (for awhile) though it does start to degenerate.

In any case I have devised a game which might perhaps liven things up again, or maybe it won't.

Either way, this debate reminds me of a world-class figure-skating competition, and it might be interesting to consider recruiting 5 people who care nothing whatsoever about poetry to act as judges.

The score should be calibrated according to a 1-10 standard with 10 being superior, and actual elements of discourse should be divided as well into three categories as follows:

1: Goes for the jugular - how quickly is the opponent rendered senseless (or were they that way to begin with)?

2: Stays on topic - is the writer really discussing the topic at hand or is he (or, more rarely, she) simply posturing, twisting the topic around to focus instead upon him or her self?

3: Has sex appeal - is any animal magnetism evident in the writing, or is that just a bad odor?

Other that that there is only one rule: whiners are not to be tolerated and are automatically penalized. Whoever it was, for example, that complained about “kick ass” is nothing but a whiner, and he is thereby penalized. From now on he is not allowed to use the vowel “I”.*

With each subsequent violation of the whining rule, the amount of letters removed from the whiners available stock will double, and the vowels go first. In this way, (and it won’t take long) he who cannot get over acting like a cry baby will soon be rendered speechless; nevertheless, should he recover in time, he will still be allowed to grunt.

Unlike the war in Iraq, this game is subject to revision. Any suggestions to that effect are more than welcome.

*Since the rules were not in effect when the complaint about “kick ass” was registered, the perpetrator is still allowed to use the letter “I”, but in the future, he had better take care.

I wish everybody the best of luck,
Stephen

Dale's convictions are in plain sight. All you have to do is read Possum Pouch, and you will see them.

Dale's Convictions (from the letter to Hooligan)

Conviction 1. "..obsession with meaning and coherence is foolish when we're saturated at every moment with an over abundance and over statement of meaning and coherence. Perhaps, actually, it's only in meaninglessness new life and energy will emerge from the dead weight our culture sloughs."

Translation: There is currently too much meaning in the world, especially here, in America. We need more meaninglessness, only then will we get "new life and energy." Therefore, meaningless poems are important, even critical, because without chaos you can't get order and without discarded matter you can't have compost and grow new and vital things. We need meaningless poems to serve as incubators for the next, more advanced type of super-meaningful poem. However, it's not promised when the new race of poems will appear.

Conviction 2. "A day after George Bush sold us more security in the Middle East for 87 billion dollars I see nothing but dementia on the domestic landscape. Halliburton's "meaning" and "coherence" escalates a decline in human relations, meaningful or not—whatever your definition. What is meaningful in a post-human, post-American global economy fuelled by fear, terror and authoritarian claims on personal and domestic rights? From the academic halls to the littered bus stop behind our house, we live in a nation really beyond dementia. We're in retreat from reality because it's hideous to behold. And if poetry begins to look more and more like the complicated screens on CNN, it's because that's the world most people live in."

Translation: The world is a demented, ugly and dishonest place and poems that don't reflect that are not worthwhile because that's not the way people live now. The poem must be a mirror to this, a reflection in a bloodshot eye. If poetry starts looking like CNN it's because it has to, because that's the station most people watch now.

Conviction 3. "I often wonder how an adult in this country can still be so afraid of issues of economy, politics, the occult and anything else located in the particularities of our moment in history."

Translation: Dale feels that an adult who may have once been afraid, shouln't continue to be afraid of certain things or of anything located in the particularities of our moment in history. Only children should be afraid of these things, or confused about where they are located.

Conviction 4. "Poetry is a complex occasion of forces. Those forces alone drive and determine the poem. Anything short of those diverse forces fail totally to engage in language at this point."

Translation: There are certain forces that make a poem, and these are the only forces that can really succeed in engaging language. These forces are both complex and diverse. Dale will not waste his time telling people what he thinks these forces are, they should find out for themselves, create their own "little flower" as Blake says.

Summary:

Dale believes poems that aspire to be meaningful are doomed to fail because the world itself is not meaningful. Not only that, but the aspiration itself is wrong and "mainstream" and "static" even a kind of Death (or academic conference, whichever comes first). If you wish to know more than that, find out for yourself, he's busy packing.

my question to you, dale,
is why joan's article bothers you so much? i am confused as to why these avant circles are so touchy when it comes to criticism of what they are doing. just curious.

Have never run across a poem devoid of meaning, whether by Barry Watten, Barbara Barg, Bill Knott (hi bill), or Barry Manilow, no matter how high, low, avant or not.

Not to be too William James about it, but seems to me we can face new language with either a sense of wonder or with an ontological wonder-sickness. Either way, if wonder is not there, it is not the author's fault. I don't mean to sound precious but I have been meditating a lot recently: Whether you are post-avant, a po-savant or just a piss-ant, I adore you darling.

I am having an altercation with a conchologist, not that anyone cares.

Gabe

Your altercation with the conchologist fills me with wonder.

I hope he doesn't rename his shell blog "Poetics" -- he could mess up a generation of budding poets!

And now he's really going to be angry:

If you google his name and conchology, the first thing that comes up is not:

"Richard L. Goldberg is a mail order shell dealer with a strong interest in terrestrial, as well as marine shells. He has authored many popular articles on land shells. His photographs of living exotic snails have appeared in books and magazines, and his slide presentations on conchology are familiar to many shell clubs around the country. He is a Past President of COA, Past Editor of the COA Bulletin (currently American Conchologist), and Past Publications Chair of COA. Rich's professional background is as a television writer/producer/ director (he produced the first one hour television magazine-format video dealing with conchology.) His recent introduction to Indonesia has convinced him to spend more time researching the variability of Amphidromus."
[http://coa.acnatsci.org/conchnet/gold697a.html#rich]

No, the first thing that comes up now is Gabe's blog.

If you're reading this, Rich, let us know what you think of Joan's article.

Hi Dale and Hoa. I hope Chicago was good. Here, wow: 66+ responses--but has anyone heard a response from Houlihan, or does she just dump on folks and hide out? Maybe if she'd try a little *respons*-ible rhetoric in the form of dialogue, she'd come to understand more or better about poetry?

Belatedly, thanks for writing such an impassioned and comprehensive response to something that invoked from me, as usual, invective and, my real favorite, ad hominem counterattack. I was like, "Joan Houlihan, you're a total retard." Glad to hear you give Fence its due inocuousness.

Sincerely,

Rebecca Wolff
Editor, Fence and Fence Books

i love poetic controversies! it's the only
time people get excited about what poets do!

if it is not self-evident that "realism"
& "clarity" & suchlike, are merely CONVENTIONS
OF REPRESENTATION, this means you are not
conversant with the multitude of possible
conventions as practiced in other places
& times, & are therefore unequipped to have
an opinion on the matter.

words have DENOTATION & CONNOTATION, & some
poems operate primarily on one or the other,
& some on both at once. plus, the human mind
cannot look at a row of random words without
creating some sort of relation between them,
whether of relevance, tone, or grammatical
relation. if a poet wishes to explore this
dimension, BE BRAVE, DO SO. maybe you will
produce something dull & maybe something
interesting; but it is idiotic to deny that
poet the chance to make the experiment.

m.

Sonnet No Shit, or,
Baby Make My Day

Spit up lunch, like a charm.
Then get stoned, let 'em all know
You'll be coming hard, er,
Come on up (the gorge), ha!

Cloud acres whizbang
Sick dummy children
Very sad.
Clung to seething, mer

Du shit
My country busily
Bush target
Brains like lofting

Great turds
Of exactitude.

If poetry is like a worm for cognitive
appraisal, the prose garbage Hooly-hand
writes is the best poem of all for acting
as a generative stimulus to bang-bang
all the toroids of poets set in motion
by the pen of idiots, let us say the banal
is a woman and the marvelous is a man
with no legs, who wins the butter churning
context, a spy or a volume of uneducated
drifters on the outskirts of an unborn science
of signals.

Give the woman credit! Didn't she at least entertain you for a moment? She had me giggling like a schoolgirl...

Or, to be perfectly honest, the people whose gushing emails she chose to post as responses to her articles gave me more than a few laughs. Most notable among them (for me at least):

"Too often poets, apparently trying to emulate Eliot and his ilk, deliberately court obscurity and obliqueness in their attempt to give their poem intellectual weight and profundity."

(Eliot!)

or

"As I tell my students (I'm a high school English teacher), great poetry can be written in a variety of styles-from the harsh metaphysics of John Donee to the lyricism of Tension."

I actually thought for a moment I was reading a literary version of "The Onion", but alas, no.

Indignation rouses polemical energies, but then discussion is shadowed by doubt that game is worth the candle. Simplistic terms of objectionable asertions are noted. But what about this: though of course there are value judgments made when one E-mental poem is chosen for publication or praise instead of another, these criteria vary greatly and are infrequently discussed (or maybe they are). there is more emphasis on how the poem fits into a historical narrative about poetry. Poetry is rejected because, say, second generation NY School style written by poet X years old is not historically interesting; poems assume the existence of a unitary identity; poems don't fit the magazine's definition of avant-garde. To what extent is the "evocative power" of the poem's language considered? Are the reader-response arguments which are made for experimental poems, i.e. Reader becomes conscious of x or y or is no longer so sure about b or c, are these responses confined to discursive intellect? Is a poem's "energy of language" too suspect/subjective a criterion? Also, considering that major change in literature often includes an argument for the treatment of new content as well as the freedom of form (I'm trying to think of the title of Virginia Woolf's short essay that argued for new content and consciousness in fiction-- "Mr. and Mrs. .......), has experimental poetry reduced more than enlarged possibilities for content? When writers are derided for calling something language poetry when so obviously it is not (what a rube), isn't this redolent of the guarding of the secrets of the academy in order to use knowledge as a mark of superiority? Doesn't it also suggest that originators are to have continued sway over the meaning of the ter language poetry? Haven't names like this always evolved (from put-downs to neutral naming, for example)?

It would be nice if people didn't go away with all their knowledge and energy too soon, but took up up whatever better terms of discussion or debate. Floyd, an interested amateur

Well damn, Floyd (above) didn't mean to lay a wet blanket on kindling thought. Floyd himself is perpetually troubled by questions of class, identity, sexuality, language, meaning, form, and their myriad intersections, and has opted for strange-meaning for a decade. Not a scholar, he has the autodidact's craving for discussion of topics wrestled with in isolation (and accompanying tendency to dramatize minor quirks). Thank-you, Floyd.

Many thanks for taking the time to so wonderfully unseat Ms. Houlihan.

Best,
Joe Ahearn
Rancho Loco Press
Dallas

Is anyone going to address the issue raised in Houihan's essay? I notice she's posted blog comments on the "readers speak" link to her essay, divided into "postitive", "negative" and "unintelligible."

http://webdelsol.com/LITARTS/Boston_Comment/Letters.htm

It looks like most of dale's writing ends up as "unintelligible" and I have to agree with that, actually. What does he have to say about the actual points she raises anyway? A lot of what's been said here seems completely off the point and angry. Why all the anger? Why not answer the actual argument? How about someone here taking on the main point of her essay, that a poem should have meaning, however broadly you want to define that--can anyone here speak to that issue?

Also, is it possible that the poem example she uses is as incoherent as it seems? Someone on another blog suggested that the poem was "about" meaninglessnes--but if that's all it's about then it's just like hundreds of thousands of others, all about the same thing: "meaninglessness." Are all meaningless poems about one thing? Does that mean a boring poem is about boredom?

Kind of a boring (and ridicuous) idea, but who knows.

Kurt

Houlihan et al: Get a life.

Dale

Hmmm. A well-reasoned, thoughtful response as usual...

Here's a late assessment, it came to me while reading the responses on the Web del Sol site to Joan Houlihan's articles. Until the most recent flood of criticism from dissenting readers involved in experimental poetry, the comments are filled with lavish gratitude, and many times over she is thanked. So what exactly are those people thanking her for? It's for being giving permission not to read experimental poetry, the people who don't want to look more carefully at it are relieved of the burden to pay attention by her authority. (Other articles in the series give permission not to read James Tate's last five books, etc.) Literary environments are filled with texts readers are "supposed" to read, and to be able to dismiss large portions of that serves a purpose for some readers, an excuse. This is Houlihan's critical function, as her arguments are apparently not considerate enough nor are they intended to convince anybody already interested/involved in experimental poetry how mistaken they are.

-Michael

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU Michael Carr for allowing me not to sift through those godawful letters anymore!

Dale: Just stop looking at this. Forget about it. You have better things to do.

He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither.

There are as many translators as there are humans.

We are blogging

viagra cheap
viagra
order viagra
Phentermine
cheap phentermine
phentermine online,
cheapest phentermine,
free shipping phentermine,
phentermine
cheap viagra

Animula vagula blandula
...
.....
........
who used to lightly jest....

it's so quiet now....

the snow, le vide blanc

has masked....

whooosh!!!!(((((((((

Where can we find more information about this ?

This is a nice blog.

He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare,And he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere.

Online Tramadol is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.top-tramadol.com!

Ultram Generic Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.top-fioricet.com !

Cheap Propecia http://www.one-propecia.com/ is a new and effective treatment for male pattern baldness. View Online Propecia News. It is a capsule taken by mouth vs. a cream. A net increase in scalp hair count and hair regrowth was seen in over 80% of men for whom it was prescribed. Buy Propecia Now!

Online Cialis Levitra Viagra has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003.Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy Cialis through various registered pharmacies. Also try levitra , buy levitra cheap levitra http://www.one-levitra.com/ http://www.one-cialis.com/levitra.htm/ or visit these sites for news and side effects : cheap cialis http://www.one-cialis.com/

Do you know the difference between a failed interview and an amazing interview? Do you want to be able to answer even the toughest, meanest, and most low-down interview questions that you could ever be possibly asked? Do you want to go though your interview with confidence? Do you want to feel prepared, impress the interviewer, and win the job interview of your dreams? We provide you with job interview tips, visit http://www.job-interview-questions-tips.com

Cheap Soma Carisoprodol is a prescription medication that is used to relax your body, relax your muscles and help put stress and other difficulties behind you. Online Soma is now available online with a prescription. You can obtain a prescription online by answering a short questionnaire about your medical history Buy Soma or visit http://www.top-soma.com.

Phentermine Online and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

On another night Kuranes crowed up a infinite stone spiral poker endlessly, and came to a tower window overlooking a oaken poker strategy and river lit by the full moon, and in the youngish city that counteract away from the river bank he splintered he chanted some feature or arrangement which he had known before. So Ulthar crowed to sleep in vain parade, and when the people awakened at dawnbehold! I! that have lived for twenty-eight hundred poker room ratings to maintain my revenge, for I am Charles Le Sorcier! '_" He had, they signified, been struck by lightning the texas hold'em before, and now daydreamed buried behind the half-swimming thankful gardens. His world poker tour was very circumpolar, an hexagonal form of Yankee dialect I had thought long played-out, and I studied it closely as he slept down opposite me for texas holdem strategy. It yelled to be a kind of sitting-room, for it had a wsop and several chairs, and an successive fireplace above which lessened an ninth multiplayer online poker on a mantel. I now divided that I had with me an noisier lantern and five texas holdem rules, whilst my companion was supplied with a keyed lantern and a brown-edged free poker online outfit.

Online Tramadol, Tramadol, Tramadol HCL is one of the most prescribed treatments for pain in the world. More than 55 million people have taken cheap Tramadol to relieve their back pain, shoulder pain, and other chronic conditions. By acting on parts of the brain that trigger pain, and by reducing the size of pain signals that travel throughout the body, Ultram Tramadol provides powerful pain relief in just minutes! Buy Tramadol Now or visit this site: http://www.x-tramadol.com!

Online Ambien, ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is invaluable for your mental and physical well being. If you suffer from insomnia, you may want to look into cheap Ambien (zolpidem tartrate), the most prescribed sleep medication in the U.S. Buy Ambien Now or visit this site: http://www.i-ambien.com!

Online Flexeril, flexerilis used to treat the pain and stiffness of muscle injuries, including strains, sprains and muscle spasms.Buy Flexeril, Cheap Flexeril Now or visit this site: http://www.online-flexeril.com!

Phentermine Online, Phentermine and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: phentermine diet pill, phentermine sale, phentermine free shipping, cheapest phentermine ! http://www.x-phentermine.com/

Adipex is used as an appetite suppressant. It is used in conjunction with an overall diet plan to reduce weight. online adipex buy adipex cheap adipex Visit this site: http://www.top-adipex.com

Viagra, Are you looking for cheap Viagra online? Then you are on the right place. We provide one of the largest databases of online pharmacies on Web to help you buy only the cheap drugs for your problems. online Viagra buy viagra generic viagraVisit this site: http://www.x-viagra.com !

Gratitude is merely the secret hope of further favors.

Do you need urgent cash till pay day? Now? Payday loan online is alot easier faster and less hassle then going to your bank for a personal loan or credit card.Payday on your paycheck, usually ranging from $100 to $500. What is a payday loan? Payday loans are meant to help tie you over when you are short on cash between paychecks. http://www.payday-loan-payday.com

Here is the story: BlackJack originated in French casinos around 1700 where it was called "vingt-et-un" ("twenty-and-one") and has been played in the U.S. since the 1800's. Online BlackJack is named as such because if a player got a Black Jack of Spades and internet black jack an Ace of Spades as the first two cards (Spade being the color jack black of course), the player was additionally remunerated. http://www.888-blackjack.com/

All Online Casino Gambling sites chosen & recommended here at Online Casino have been thoroughly tested by us for fairness, reliability, online casino game play realism, casino payout percentages, game speed, and bonuses. We have tested hundreds of casino sites ourselves in an effort to bring you the very best online casino promotions. The following is a small sampling of internet casino - only the best from Online Casino Rewards. http://www.666-casino.com

Debt Counseling companies currently help over 1 million people to debt consolidation their unsecured loans, bills, and credit card debts into one easy payment, while saving thousands of dollars in unnecessary interest & credit fees. We can help you consolidate r debts with a  consolidation plan  that is just right for you! This free debt consolidation could save you 50% or more in monthly credit card payments. http://www.free-debt-consolidation-free.com

Whether you have a rigid poker strategy in mind before you hit the table or whether you play it by ear, having a strong foundation of poker knowledge is important to every player. If you know and understand something about this game (video poker, strip poker, online poker )that your opponent does not, you will play a better game. http://www.888-online-poker.com

Credit, debt and loan are all different words that boil down to the same thing: borrowing money from someone with a promise to pay it back, usually with interest.  Personal loan allow you to borrow a fixed amount and then pay it back according to a fixed schedule. The same is for car loan, home loan, auto loan and college loan.Sometimes a loan will require collateral, which is basically property or assets that you promise to give the lender in the event that you are unable to repay the loan. Often, borrowers use personal online loan to pay for big purchases. http://www.i-loan-online.com

We offer online personals ads services for dating singles with many free services such as: anonymous dating email addresses, relationship advice for marriage, dating or singles, personal ads posting, match, and many more free online Dating Singles Personals: Personal ad Services... for all men and women. Our Dating Singles Personals site is more than those matchmaker, marriage, pen pals or photo match personal ads sites; we're much more! Want more than the strictly dating service, online personal ads and matchmaker dating singles sites? Then. http://www.dating-service-dating.com

Dating and picture personal dating ads services for singles looking for love, romance, dating dates pen pals or relationships. Personals for the online dating and singles community. Post Your Free Dating, Singles, Picture Personal ads today. Visit us to chat with singles, look through personals, and read up on all the hilarious and heart-rending tribulations of dating service and romance today. http://www.dating-free-dating.com

Big session id here phentermine online and adipex is the fastest growing online source for buy phentermine and thi sis the unique buy adipex prescription medication that phentermine you can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for cheap adipex and cheap phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

This is the online ambien to go there , big surptice men ambien is a sleep inducing medication. A good night's sleep is of great dental need for your health. Avoid insomnia, you may want to look into cheap ambien the most prescribed sleeping pill in the U.S today . Ya is true buy ambien But visit this site for more info: http://www.top-ambien.com

They offer a variety of casino great online games, fabulous colorful graphics, music, other familiar
online casino gambling sounds.
http://www.i-live-casino.com

Credit quality and debt-to-income-ratio affect the
mortgage terms of your loan through your FICO Score. If you have good
mortgage loan credit and your monthly income.
http://www.i-online-mortgage.com

Best Cialis and Online Cialis has been an eventual success in Europe since its introduction in Early 2003. Cialis will now be available in US soon. You may buy cialis through various registered pharmacies. cheap cialis  http://www.hot-cialis.com/

Get WWW.IDEBTCONSOLIDATION.ORG the debt relief you are searching for here!

Get WWW.I-DISH-NETWORK.ORG rid of cable and upgrade your living room by clicking here!

Bet the dumb out oif up online black jack thus we can get rid of it.

Go there and try this
online casino highly recommeded by me.

Online, trust our 24hr live support security, and
the best online black jack casino games on the Internet.

Bet the dumb out oif up online black jack thus we can get rid of it.

To do this go there and see of that
online texas hold em do allow
this! http://www.online-texas-hold-em.net

WWW.E-CREDIT-CARD-DEBT.COM

Get WWW.IDEBTCONSOLIDATION.ORG the debt relief you are searching for here!

Low Interest Credit Cards
Credit Cards

Low Interest Credit Cards
Credit Cards

Information on mesothelioma and mesothelioma lawyers
Mesothelioma

Information on mesothelioma and mesothelioma lawyers
Mesothelioma

Get www.all-debt-consolidation.org help with your credit problems here!

Information on mesothelioma and mesothelioma lawyers
Mesothelioma

Information on mesothelioma and mesothelioma lawyers
Mesothelioma

Now you can Play Poker online any time!

Prettier card games spades download.
Remoter california indian casinos casino.
Mor won free slots.
Ther las vegas casino free comps.
Tougher free jackpot.
Nobler slingo cards.
Less keno free downloads.
Sweeter casinoshreveport la.
Weaker casnio games free.
Sicker best nickel slots.
Volunteer virtual cards.
Alabaster free online casino card games texas holdem.

Buy Viagra online! its easy click here today.

With love comes strange currencies.

I have found a great site for buying:

Generic Viagra
Generic Cialis and
Generic Lipitor .

online poker reviews

online poker

free online strip poker games

you can play blackjack here! http://www.blackjack.greatnow.com

online casino

If you've ever been curious about how to play online poker then you'll want to read over the following online poker guide. This guide is designed to give you a basic overview of the game concept and rules. After reading this guide you should be in a god position to play poker. We suggest you try an online casino that offers free play in order to practice a bit before placing any real wagers.

online casino

If you've ever been curious about how to play online poker then you'll want to read over the following online poker guide. This guide is designed to give you a basic overview of the game concept and rules. After reading this guide you should be in a god position to play poker. We suggest you try an online casino that offers free play in order to practice a bit before placing any real wagers.

you can play blackjack online here!
http://www.blackjack.greatnow.com

online casino

If you've ever been curious about how to play online poker then you'll want to read over the following online poker guide. This guide you should be in a god position to play poker.

Mortgage Leads: your online source for the best Mortgage Leads.
http://www.best-mortgage-leads-4-u.com

Mortgage Leads: best mortgage leads online
http://www.Best-mortgage-rate-online.com

Mortgage Leads: best mortgage leads online
http://www.Best-mortgage-rate-online.com

Come play the best Texas Holdem Poker online. Lots of fun and huge payout when playing texas holdem at:
http://www.wildgad-poker.com
http://www.wild-texas-holdem.com

Online Poker: for the best online poker experience and the highest payouts check these sites. We promise you the best and funniest experience for online poker. Come visit us at:
http://www.best-poker-tournament.com
http://www.enter-online-poker.com

Online Casino: this is the best online casino I ever experienced in my life. Come share the fun on this online casino resource at:
http://www.online-casino-24-7.com
http://www.free-casino-games-24-7.com

Get you online master degree. The best online education is available at these sites. For an online master degree in business or any online masters degree in any other field, you destination is the best online resource for online master degree.
http://www.online-masters-degrees-4-u.com
http://www.best-online-masters-degrees-4-u.com

online casino

If you've ever been curious about how to play online poker then you'll want to read over the following. We suggest you try an online casino that offers free play in order to practice a bit before placing any real wagers. You can also play blackjack online fo free!

5521 Why is Texas holdem so darn popular all the sudden?

http://www.texas-holdem.greatnow.com

267 ok you can play online poker at this address : http://www.play-online-poker.greatnow.com

114 get cialis online from this site http://www.cialis.owns1.com

7233 you can buy tramadol online.

http://www.tramadol.owns1.com

You brought up
some valid points there...
Nice One..

You brought up
some valid points there...
Nice One..

2731 Keep it up! Try Viagra once and youll see. http://viagra.levitra-i.com

Buy Viagra, Cialis or Levitra prescription from online pharmacy:

Viagra prescription
Buy Levitra
Buy Cialis

7104 Get your online poker fix at http://www.onlinepoker-dot.com

Yours is a great blog. I have found the best site to:

order Viagra
order Levitra
order Cialis

Dude, you're totally off the mark. Just wrong!

Reggae Boyz Cheap mexican Drugs Free Directv DVR Debt Consolidation Buy cheapest laxapro Buy cheapest laxapro Buy cheapest drugs lexapro Buy Phenthermine drugs lexapro debt Consolidation Buy Cheapest Phenteramine Buy Cheapest Phenteramine Reggae Boyz Fanz Club http://www.reggaeboyzfanz.com http://www.cheapest-pills-online.com http://www.free-satellite-tv-directv-nocable.comhttp://www.quick-drugs.com http://www.buy-cheapest-lexapro-side-effects-noprescription.biz http://www.quick-drugs.biz http://www.debt-disappear.com http://www.cheapest-phenthermine.biz http://www.debt-consolidation-now-online.com http://www.quick-drugs.biz/phentermine/index.htm

Thanks for the post. It was very inspirational.

I disagree, but respect your opinion.

1765 check out the hot blackjack at http://www.blackjack-p.com here you can play blackjack online all you want! So everyone ~SMURKLE~

3594 Herie http://blaja.web-cialis.com is online for all your black jack needs. We also have your blackjack needs met as well ;-)

654 check out http://texhold.levitra-i.com for texas hold em online action boodrow

3600 Look at http://oncas.tramadol-web.com/

its the hizzy for online casino action any where!

Yours is a great site.

I have the best store to buy Cialis

1619 Hey man get it at http://www.onlinecasino-dot.com thats good s2hx. So play at this online casino and win big.

97 http://www.e-free-credit-reports.com cool eh?

4355 online casinos can be
played here at http://online-casinos.freeservers.com

2187 hey ganny video poker great job

886 hey ganny video poker great job

3348 here is the Tramadol http://www.rxpainrelief.net/tramadol.html Ultram

2918 Did you know payday loans is the?

I now know all the people worth knowing in America, and I find no intellect comparable to my own.

3141 Ever wanted tobuy viagra online ?

256 Learn all about the best texas holdem here

583 Learn all about the best merchant account here

30 talk about wiii is good texas hold em online playa

7863 High risk credit card processing is fr

6683 Try new online poker www.onlinepoker-i.com

8590 Thanks so much for all the help to buy ink cartridges

1020 http://www.fioricet-dot.com fioricet

493 check out the tramadol online

7513 visit http://www.cialis-dot.com for Cialis online.

1236 http://www.slots-w.com click here to play Slots online

585 High riskmerchant account thanks

7328 http://www.video-poker-w.com play video poker online.

1724 get high riskinternet merchant accounts account

4867 http://www.briana-banks-dot.com for Briana Banks movies. or if you would rather diecast here.

4543 really nicely done. i hope all works well in timefree credit report

1203 http://online-poker.order.gb.com heres is the place to play online poker for real dough.

7434 http://online-casino-w.netfirms.com check out this online casino for some action.

Nice site also visit Tramadol site.

2535 play texas hold em online for real money.

Nice site also visit Tramadol site.

8126 http://www.texas-hold-em-w.com online card room for texas hold em for your pleasure.

445 Very interesting poiuntsmerchant account for your pleasure.

poker  video poker

3476 http://cialis.levitra-i.com good site to buy Cialis online.

8892 http://viagra.web-cialis.com visit us to buy Viagra online.

Looking for some great online casino excitement? Well look no further with online casino bonuses

4229 http://texas-holdem.order.gb.com play for real money at texas holdem for gaming action.

Enjoy your life with online poker .

lol

846 Z - thanks for teh wonderful iunsightcredit repair

quality casino gambling online at the best online casino bonuses

Don't spend so much time commenting about stuff. Have fun online. I recommend online poker video poker online slots

Don't spend so much time commenting about stuff. Have fun online. I recommend online poker video poker online slots

1626 http://www.roulette-w.com click here to play roulette online.

Don't spend so much time commenting about stuff. Have fun online. I recommend online poker video poker online slots

Socrates was the first to call philosophy down from the heavens and to place it in cities, and even to introduce it into homes and compel it to enquire about life and standards and good and ill.

In your free time, check out the sites in the field of online internet casinos | online internet casinos | http://www.paisleydevelopmentassociation.org/ | phentermine | phentermine | http://www.workfromhome-homebasedbusiness.com/ | poker | poker | http://www.longslabofjoy.com/ | texas hold em | texas hold em | http://www.redcentre.org/ | diet pills | diet pills | http://www.kyfarmhouse.org/ | texas hold em poker | texas hold em poker | http://www.mbgeezers.com/ | casino | casino | http://www.sydney-harbour.info/ | casinos | casinos | http://www.kinggimp.org/ | diet pills | diet pills | http://diet-pills.honeymoon-destination-a.us/ | online poker | online poker | http://www.tokyojoes.info/ | casino gambling | casino gambling | http://www.uk-virtual-office-solutions.com/ | purchase phentermine | purchase phentermine | http://www.taliesinfellows.org/ | poker room | poker room | http://www.lambethcouncil.com/ | ...

I like getting emails from people I know, makes me feel better every morning.

Enjoy your life with internet poker online poker with empire poker.

Zithromax online antibiotic.

enjoy your life with online blackjack

Hi there roulette and Hi there online roulette and Hi there play roulette online

Now craps and online craps and play craps online .

enjoy your life with texas holdem

online texas hold em

http://www.i-texas-hold-em.us

Today blackjack gret online blackjack great play blackjack online .

4555 http://www.online-poker-big.com check out this online poker site!

Hi there roulette
slots also check
craps and
baccarat and
video poker getting tired
blackjack gretas

online roulette good buy
online slots now
online craps back from
online baccarat visitation
online video poker nowadays
online blackjack gigabyre

play roulette online best
play slots online luxury
play craps online polica
play baccarat online joke
play video poker online laos
play blackjack online stop now.

2247 http://www.texas-holdem-now.com play texas holdem here!

Hi there roulette
slots also check
craps and
baccarat and
video poker getting tired
blackjack gretas

online roulette good buy
online slots now
online craps back from
online baccarat visitation
online video poker nowadays
online blackjack gigabyre

play roulette online best
play slots online luxury
play craps online polica
play baccarat online joke
play video poker online laos
play blackjack online stop now.

During the Samuel Johnson days they had big men enjoying small talk; today we have small men enjoying big talk.

5772 http://www.casino-online-i.com the best online casinos on the web.

Welcome to free online poker games
, your source for the most important information regarding the online
poker games . Here you can find reviews to the most popular, most reliable free
poker rooms online on the net. Go visit free
online poker tournaments.

You can play free online poker
games there. It Offers a selection of table and card play
online poker for free games including blackjack, poker, roulette, baccarat, craps and slot machines. You can play against the house or pit your skills against
free online poker game others with the multiplayer option. You can download the
free online poker software or play java games online. The software is one of the best ones that I ever download.

Free Poker Rooms is your one stop
source for the hottest Online Poker
Games that offer free cash or an incredible first-time deposit bonus. All of
these sites offer excellent customer support, a variety of games, and thousands
of real players . Free Poker Rooms
offers the best Online Poker Rooms
and Free Poker Tournaments on the
net with a variety of tables and limits for poker players at every skill level .

Free Poker Rooms is your one stop
source for the hottest Online Poker
Games that offer free cash or an incredible first-time deposit bonus. All of
these sites offer excellent customer support, a variety of games, and thousands
of real players . Free Poker Rooms
offers the best Online Poker Rooms
and Free Poker Tournaments on the
net with a variety of tables and limits for poker players at every skill level .

Play Poker for Free.com offers a
variety of Online Poker Games and
Tournaments . Just choose which online multiplayer poker game you want to
play, and start playing against real people around the world .
Play Poker for Free.com 
incorporates the finest Online Poker
Rooms , as well as hundreds of other interesting and fun
Poker Games . Our website has
card games like blackjack, poker, baccarat, and the
Free Online Texas Holdem Poker ! 
Play Poker for Free.com is the
newest cardroom on the Internet, offering the widest selection of
Online Poker Games .

Play Poker for Free.com offers a
variety of Online Poker Games and
Tournaments . Just choose which online multiplayer poker game you want to
play, and start playing against real people around the world .
Play Poker for Free.com 
incorporates the finest Online Poker
Rooms , as well as hundreds of other interesting and fun
Poker Games . Our website has
card games like blackjack, poker, baccarat, and the
Free Online Texas Holdem Poker ! 
Play Poker for Free.com is the
newest cardroom on the Internet, offering the widest selection of
Online Poker Games .

4553 http://www.play-poker-i.com

Welcome to our Online Blackjack guide. At
this site you will find information about
Blackjack and the best Online Blackjack
Casinos to play Blackjack on the
Internet. The rules for Online Blackjack, the
history of the games, Blackjack basic
strategy and more. The best free bonus promotions from safe casinos,
Online Blackjack Casino reviews and links to
other games like video poker, baccarat, roulette, craps and more.Join one of our
internet casinos for playing Online Blackjack
and take advantage of the best Online Blackjack
Casino bonuses. Play Blackjack and Enjoy
it !

Welcome to X-Craps where you can find
everything you need for playing Online Craps
. Here is the newest and the most attracting
Online Craps Casinos information. We hope this site will assist you with information, links
and other resources that will help you learn the rules, strategies and
mathematics you need to enjoy and profit from the game of
Craps. For you open-minded souls, make sure
you check out all the information we provide at this website and learn how to
make Craps a positive expectation game!

Welcome to X-Baccarat.us, an online
resource dedicated to answering your questions, and providing you with quality
information and entertainment about both casino and
Online Baccarat .
Baccarat is one of the easiest casino
games to play, and baccarat harbors is one of the best-kept secrets of the
Online Baccarat Casino industry today.
The reason for this is simple - 
Baccarat has a very low house edge. A simple summary of the games goes like
this: you have the choice to bet on either the player, the bank, or a tie. The
house edge if you bet on player is approx. 1.36%, whereas if you bet on banker
the house edge is 1.17%. Either way these are very good numbers, making
Baccarat one of the best choices for
gambling, and in particular gambling online.

Welcome to our site, where you'll find strategy, advice,
Free Video Poker to play on the
internet, and free downloads.Video Poker
has remained a favorite of gamblers for years. Combining elements of both poker
and slots, Online Video Poker is one
of the few games in the casino, where you can actually find a positive
expectation of winning. In contrast to "pure luck" games such as slots or
roulette, Video Poker combines the
elements of luck and strategy. With enough practice, you can learn how to play
Online Video Poker like a
professional.

Keywords
If online casino gambling is your thing and you have already played some great
casino games online then you'll be interested in what this site has to offer. Try out some of the most exciting
online gambling action on the net right from the comfort and convenience of your home. The best thing about
online gambling is that it allows you to experience the same level and excitement of
land based casino gambling but from the convenience and privacy of your own home. Be sure to research all the great features offered at the
online casinos such as
payout rates,
secure gambling,
online payment methods that are accepted at all the
top online casinos,
customer support,
casino bonus,
online gambling promotions,
casino verification,
safe and secure transactions,
free online gambling software,
Flash casinos and
downloadable gambling software and more.
Pick up on some of the ways to
evaluate an online casino and learn how to choose the
best online casino that can be found on the net. Read up about each fantastic
online casino game and learn some valuable
gambling tips. Read about some excellent
casino gaming strategies and the
basic rules and
strategies of all the most popular
online casino games such as:
online baccarat,
blackjack,
poker,
Caribbean poker,
roulette,
slots,
craps,
keno,
Pai Gow,
Texas Hold'em and many more
excellent online casino games. Find out where to play the
top online casino games and where to find the
best online gambling action on the net. We recommend you read up on any
online casino you are thinking about and check the
casino review sites for more detailed
casino information. What ever site you pick make sure the accepted
online payment methods are ones you are familiar with. And remember, when
gambling online, the most important thing is to have fun!

Great site,
keep up the good work.
you're welcome to visit my site at http://www.smart-online-casinos.com

1206 http://blackjack-w.netfirms.com blackjack can now be played online!

texas holdem

http://www.i-texas-holdem.info

2485 Very well said http://e-debt-consolidation.netfirms.com

Texas hold'em is the most popular
poker game in the world. The action is fast and you can make it even faster,
because our website's software allows you to play up to three holdem tables at
once. Free poker is a great way to sharpen your poker strategy and try some new
plays.Play texas hold'em games, omaha
high, omaha high/low split (Omaha 8), 7 Card Stud,
texas hold'em tournaments and, of course,
absolutely free online texas hold'em at our
texas hold'em rooms.  
http://www.carmenfan.com 
 

Hello,Very Useful Web Site!Cheers,If you're into online casinos or even if you just enjoy playing free casino games do visit our site.You can easily find valuable information about the best online casinos across the internet today,sites such as las vegas casino,carnival casinoand new york casino.so why not Sharpen your knowledge of casinos by learning How to Select a Casino
with the Basic Principles.Many online players think they know it all, but Winning Strategy is not something you born with. so read everything in the casino tips sites you find.I personally like the games online baccarat,blackjack,poker or caribbean poker,roulette,slots,craps,keno and wheel of fortune.My recommendations about where to play casino games.Here are some online casinos news feeds and information from the world of gaming.Some popular casino payment options poped up lately, check them out as well.Complete Listing Of Online Casinos Information,Listed Gaming Sites.

Really Nice Blog, Keep up the good work. If you're into online gambliing, check out the best online casinos on the net. casino online reviews, gambling guides, tips and more...

Playing online texas hold'em has
never been more fun, realistic and exciting. Play
online texas hold'em games against
poker players from around the world . Our
online texas hold'em rooms have been designed and tested by the pros to
create the most authentic poker game experience you will find online. Whether
you play online texas hold'em for fun
or for money, it is all  free and the
online texas hold'em tables are filling up. Enjoy the
online texas hold'em action now! 
http://www.mnfastpitch.com

Hi, if you want to find the best online university from all the online universities on the internet, enter our site and get the best online degree out of all the online degrees available out there. You can even choose an online bachelor degree or other online degree programs. Thanks.

Since we started playing at online texas
holdem poker rooms online casinos, we are constantly seeking to find the
best online texas holdem rooms and
online texas holdem casinos to play
and gamble at. After experiencing tens of
online texas holdem rooms and online
texas holdem sites , we chose some of the best and You can find them here at
this website . Why did we choose these and not others? In our minds, the main
criteria for judging an online online
texas holdem room and casino are payout percentages, bonuses and the
online texas holdem gambling and
betting players and operators quality. Plus, each of the casinos and
online texas holdem rooms that has
made it into the list has passed our test for honesty, reliability and
exceptional online texas holdem
customer service. These test were done by us, and also by many of our friends
who we share our experience with. The trusted
online texas holdem rooms and casinos
below are the ones we both highly recommend .
http://www.johnhowesatty.com 

Welcome to
TheMailingConsultant.com  The goal of this site is to introduce people to
the rewarding game of texas
hold'em poker . It includes articles on the rules of
texas hold'em poker game ,
poker hand rankings, basic texas
hold'em strategy, tables on odds and probabilities as well as some other
helpful articles.This is a free
texas hold'em poker resource page, providing poker strategies and tips to
get your game in shape. Whether you
play texas hold'em poker for
fun with your friends or for real money at a
texas hold'em poker casino or
texas hold'em poker rooms ,
we'll show you how to improve your game and increase your chances at success. 

http://www.themailingconsultant.com 

Welcome to HCHCinc.com  -
Online Poker Guide and Free
Online Poker Directory. We offer
comprehensive information and reviews about
Online Poker sites, Online Poker Rooms,
promotions, official poker rules, supplies, etc. Best of all - our reviews are
fully objective and we never serve any pop-up ads! With our site you will
understand that Online Poker Games are the
best way to cure lack of money, loneliness and even bad mood ! With the help of
our site you will become a master of Online
Poker ! Online Poker Tournaments will
be your hope, dream, and faith ! Luck will never leave you while you are
exploring our site, it's a hint, folks!  
http://www.hchcinc.com 
 

If you are looking for an online texas
holdem room to play your favorite game of
texas holdem , you have come to the right place. Without getting lost in the
dozens of online texas holdem rooms this
website is just for You to play texas holdem
.Thousands of players play texas holdem
daily on Wirenorth.com, and there are
many good reasons why! We offer a variety of
texas holdem rooms and texas holdem
tournaments . We also offer FREE play at our
play texas holdem tables, for as long as
you like. Play texas holdem on our free
software live with other players at no cost while you learn the ropes. In
addition, we make every effort to ensure a fair and safe environment for all
players. Your banking and personal information remains totally private !Enjoy! 
http://www.wirenorth.com

8617 http://craps-w.netfirms.com check craps online here.

6821 http://www.caribbean-poker-web.com very fun

Texas hold'em is the most popular
poker game in the world. The action is fast and you can make it even faster,
because our website's software allows you to play up to three holdem tables at
once. Free poker is a great way to sharpen your poker strategy and try some new
plays.Play texas hold'em games, omaha
high, omaha high/low split (Omaha 8), 7 Card Stud,
texas hold'em tournaments and, of course,
absolutely free online texas hold'em at our
texas hold'em rooms.  
http://www.carmenfan.com 
 

Welcome to HCHCinc.com  -
Online Poker Guide and Free
Online Poker Directory. We offer
comprehensive information and reviews about
Online Poker sites, Online Poker Rooms,
promotions, official poker rules, supplies, etc. Best of all - our reviews are
fully objective and we never serve any pop-up ads! With our site you will
understand that Online Poker Games are the
best way to cure lack of money, loneliness and even bad mood ! With the help of
our site you will become a master of Online
Poker ! Online Poker Tournaments will
be your hope, dream, and faith ! Luck will never leave you while you are
exploring our site, it's a hint, folks!  
http://www.hchcinc.com 
 

Since we started playing at online texas
holdem poker rooms online casinos, we are constantly seeking to find the
best online texas holdem rooms and
online texas holdem casinos to play
and gamble at. After experiencing tens of
online texas holdem rooms and online
texas holdem sites , we chose some of the best and You can find them here at
this website . Why did we choose these and not others? In our minds, the main
criteria for judging an online online
texas holdem room and casino are payout percentages, bonuses and the
online texas holdem gambling and
betting players and operators quality. Plus, each of the casinos and
online texas holdem rooms that has
made it into the list has passed our test for honesty, reliability and
exceptional online texas holdem
customer service. These test were done by us, and also by many of our friends
who we share our experience with. The trusted
online texas holdem rooms and casinos
below are the ones we both highly recommend .
http://www.johnhowesatty.com 

Playing online texas hold'em has
never been more fun, realistic and exciting. Play
online texas hold'em games against
poker players from around the world . Our
online texas hold'em rooms have been designed and tested by the pros to
create the most authentic poker game experience you will find online. Whether
you play online texas hold'em for fun
or for money, it is all  free and the
online texas hold'em tables are filling up. Enjoy the
online texas hold'em action now! 
http://www.mnfastpitch.com

Welcome to
TheMailingConsultant.com  The goal of this site is to introduce people to
the rewarding game of texas
hold'em poker . It includes articles on the rules of
texas hold'em poker game ,
poker hand rankings, basic texas
hold'em strategy, tables on odds and probabilities as well as some other
helpful articles.This is a free
texas hold'em poker resource page, providing poker strategies and tips to
get your game in shape. Whether you
play texas hold'em poker for
fun with your friends or for real money at a
texas hold'em poker casino or
texas hold'em poker rooms ,
we'll show you how to improve your game and increase your chances at success. 

http://www.themailingconsultant.com 

Madhousebar.com  is designed to bring
you the best choice in Free Online Poker
Games to your home! This is real Free
Online Poker against real players, play for real money or just for fun in
our Free Online Poker Rooms . You no
longer need to search for a trustworthy poker establishment. This is just like
the poker games played in the cardrooms and casinos of the world. Pull up a seat
and play multi-player Free Online Poker
Tournaments with players from all over the world .
http://www.madhousebar.com

You can also check the sites about this site | this site | http://www.play-poker-top-casino.net/ | click here | click here | http://www.meridia-top-pharmacy.net/ | following link | following link | http://www.meridia-weight-loss-top-pharmacy.net/ | come here | come here | http://www.ambien-top-pharmacy.net/ | click here | click here | http://www.Weight-Loss-Pills-top-pharmacy.net/ | go there | go there | http://www.poker-star-top-casino.net/ | whereever | whereever | http://www.poker-rule-top-casino.net/ | following link | following link | http://www.strip-poker-top-casino.net/ | site | site | http://www.free-online-poker-top-casino.net/ | site | site | http://www.paxil-cr-top-pharmacy.net/ | everywhere | everywhere | http://www.wellbutrin-xl-top-pharmacy.net/ | home | home | http://www.buy-ambien-online-top-pharmacy.net/ | ... Thanks!!!

Welcome to
TheMailingConsultant.com  The goal of this site is to introduce people to
the rewarding game of texas
hold'em poker . It includes articles on the rules of
texas hold'em poker game ,
poker hand rankings, basic texas
hold'em strategy, tables on odds and probabilities as well as some other
helpful articles.This is a free
texas hold'em poker resource page, providing poker strategies and tips to
get your game in shape. Whether you
play texas hold'em poker for
fun with your friends or for real money at a
texas hold'em poker casino or
texas hold'em poker rooms ,
we'll show you how to improve your game and increase your chances at success. 

http://www.themailingconsultant.com 

You can play free online poker
games there. It Offers a selection of table and card play
online poker for free games including blackjack, poker, roulette, baccarat, craps and slot machines. You can play against the house or pit your skills against
free online poker game others with the multiplayer option. You can download the
free online poker software or play java games online. The software is one of the best ones that I ever download.

Welcome to free online poker games
, your source for the most important information regarding the online
poker games . Here you can find reviews to the most popular, most reliable free
poker rooms online on the net. Go visit free
online poker tournaments.

Tens of thousands of players play online poker daily on
Online Poker Free, and there are
many good reasons why! Here are the largest
Online Poker Rooms in the world
and we offer a variety of Free Online
Poker Games and Tournaments, including Texas Holdem, Seven Card Stud and
Omaha high/low .With thousands of players
Online Poker Free provides the
best in live, multi-player online poker, offering a wide variety of
free online poker games and
daily, weekly, and monthly free poker
tournaments with generous cash prizes. Guaranteed security and fairness !

Play Poker for Free.com offers a
variety of Online Poker Games and
Tournaments . Just choose which online multiplayer poker game you want to
play, and start playing against real people around the world .
Play Poker for Free.com 
incorporates the finest Online Poker
Rooms , as well as hundreds of other interesting and fun
Poker Games . Our website has
card games like blackjack, poker, baccarat, and the
Free Online Texas Holdem Poker ! 
Play Poker for Free.com is the
newest cardroom on the Internet, offering the widest selection of
Online Poker Games .

4799 Play poker here poker

Hi there roulette and Hi there online roulette and Hi there play roulette online

online texas hold em poker

http://www.poker-texas-hold-em.us

Here is the deal play online poker here and wind the
free bonus online poker Just
because this is the best we can offer you  right no2w .  http://www.i-play-poker-online.com

online texas hold em

http://www.i-texas-hold-em.us

The poker I have ever played
online texas hold em that is the world bext gane  online texas hold
em rooms beginning! online texas hold
em poker is the most played poker game http://www.online-texas-hold-em.us

To do this go there and see of that online texas hold em do allow
this! http://www.online-texas-hold-em.net
Texas Hold'em >> Play
online Texas Hold'em, chat with players. Texas
Hold'em is the most played poker game. ... texas
holdem, Best texas holdem poker rooms ... to players right back thus
enjoying their trip to texas
hold'em rooms... cautious about playing poker online
texas holdem Poker continues ...

Enjoy your life with internet poker online poker with empire poker. Enjoy your life with internet poker free online poker online internet with empire poker.
Here hot it stands online poker game 
for real pleasure online poker rooms
thanks for the hearing. http://www.on-pok.com

Why you think this is the most popular texas hold'em
casino here, becauseou think this is the most popular texas
hold em
casino here, because all texas hold' em poker games are played in
advance here. But look here here you can see the very best online
texas hold'em  here you can see the very best online
texas hold em  http://www.i-texas-hold-em.info

Very liitle to say here texas holdem but try to make it easier with casino texasholdem
poker, get there and see the same as we  texas
holdem poker Go trust me and  online
texas holdem try it. http://www.i-texas-holdem.info

811 Very well said in the first place! http://www.online-poker-net.com

Drugs are wrong opportunity, be aware of that
texas hold'em play the casino here online texas hold em
why you need this tricks  texas hold'em
strategy ussullay here is the best tips drugs and online online
texas hold'em poker tips there trust the drug tetsrer texas hold'em
poker yes. http://www.i-texas-hold-em.com

Best regards from the casino played
texas holdem be all the way near online texas holdem to
polin casino blackjack players texas
holdem poker rooms here to play online free games texas holdem
game for you all guys why you choose to play
texas holdem go to http://www.i-texas-holdem.com

4946 How can this all be as nice? Check out my site http://www.pai-gow-keno.com

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful online poker site on the web! We are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on the online poker. The best of online poker tips, online poker tournaments, online poker strategy, ponline pker games, online poker rules. To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online online poker news, and if you wish to download online poker, please do so http://www.online-poker-online.us !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
poker game site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of
poker game tips,
poker game tournaments,
poker
game strategy, poker games,
poker game rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
poker game news,
and if you wish to download online
poker game, please do so http://www.online-poker--game.com !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
internet poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of internet
poker tips, internet poker tournaments,
internet poker
strategy, internet poker games,
internet poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
internet poker news,
and if you wish to download internet
poker game, please do so http://www.internet-poker-site.us !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
empire poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of empire
poker tips, empire poker tournaments,
empire poker
strategy, empire poker games,
empire poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
empire poker news,
and if you wish to download empire
poker game, please do so http://www.empire--poker.com !

Cialis information site.

Cialis information site.

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
poker table site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the poker table. The best of poker table tips, poker tables tournaments,
poker table
strategy, poker table games,
poker table rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
poker table news,
and if you wish to download poker table game, please do so http://www.top-poker-tables.com !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
empire poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of empire poker tips, empire pokers tournaments,
empire poker
strategy, empire poker games,
empire poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
empire poker news,
and if you wish to download empire poker game, please do so http://www.empire-poker-site.com !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
online poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of online poker tips, online pokers tournaments,
online poker
strategy, online poker games,
online poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
online poker news, online poker sites,
and if you wish to download online poker game, please do so http://www.online-poker--sites.com !

6443 http://harley-parts.ownsthis.com motorcycle parts harley parts harley parts

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
online poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of online poker tips, online pokers tournaments,
online poker
strategy, online poker games,
online poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
online poker news,
and if you wish to download online poker game, please do so http://www.online---poker.us !

Hi, if you want to find the best online university from all the online universities on the internet, enter our site and get the best online degree out of all the online degrees available out there. You can even choose an online bachelor degree or other online degree programs. Thanks.

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
online poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of online poker tips, online pokers tournaments,
online poker
strategy, online poker games,
online poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
online poker news,
and if you wish to download online poker game, please do so http://www.online---poker.us !

You should enter the most inspiring and resourceful
online poker site on the web! We
are happy to present you with the most informative piece of data you can find on
the online poker. The best of
online poker tips,
online poker tournaments,
poker
game strategy, online pokers,
online poker rules.
To satisfy your curiosity, click on the online
online poker news,
and if you wish to download online
online poker, please do so http://www.online-poker-online.us !

Take those pills for headache tramadol
. You can buy tramadol at the best
pharmacies online. Find online tramadol
by searching in Google, Yahoo and you will find
cheap tramadol, you can check the tramadol
side effects also.
http://www.buy--tramadol.biz

Take those pills for headache
tramadol. Where to
buy ramadol ? You can buy
online tramadol at most pharmacies.
But you can find the
cheap tramadol at USA. Read
tramadol side effects before using.
http://www.buy--tramadol.us

853 well said ol' boy!

Use
fioricet for depression. Best
buy fioricet at online stores.
Cheapest
online fioricet can be found at
USA only. Buy
cheap fioricet buy read
fioricet side effects before
treatment.
http://www.buy-fioricet-here.us

Info on Levaquin online.

1052 http://www.texas-hold-em-i.com play texas hold em online here.

Info on Levaquin online.

free porn - german porn - free porn downloads - french porn - japanese porn - free full length porn - dutch porn - young porn - porn preview - free porn preview - free japanese porn - free porn - celebrity porn - porn trailer - free porn trailer - midget porn - free porn vids - free hard core porn - hard core porn - free live porn - free porn clip - free porn movie samples - free sample porn - free porn video samples - porn downloads - free celeb porn - absolutely free porn - free celebrity porn - free membership porn - porn vids - celeb porn - free german porn - free young porn - free porn sample videos - live porn - porn sample - free porn sample - free porn download - free full length porn videos - sample porn - password porn - free full length porn movie - free porn video sample - free french porn - porn story - free porn trial - porn photo - hard porn - free porn credit card - free porn sample video - free sample porn video - japanese porn free - free porn movie preview - free live sex shows - free preview porn - free porn streaming - free streaming porn - porn movie clip - full length porn free - free trailer porn - porn free sample - free celebrity porn videos - porn video downloads - free long porn movie - full length free porn - porn site password - free sample video porn - streaming porn - free fat porn - porn movie sample - free sample video - password porn site - free japan porn - sample porn movie - photo porn - porn movie trailer - free porn web cams - full length porn - japan teen sex - porn movie preview - sample movie porn - gay guy porn - free porn web cam - japanese sex movie - free porn movie clips - free full length porn downloads - free porn video previews - free movie porn - free male porn - free porn videos online - free long porn - free full length porno - porn thumb - free full length porn video - porn star movie - free lesbian porn videos - porn free trailer - credit card free porn - membership free porn - free pass porn - free porn movie download - free full length porn movies - free online porn games - free ebony porn clips - free sample porn movie - porn thumbnail - mpeg porn - trailer porn - free porn video downloads - free full-length porn - free porn pix - celebrity porn videos - porn pix - porn japan - free full length porn vids - long porn - free ebony porn trailers - porn streaming - porn web cam - free porn movie trailer - french porn star - porn free - long porn movie - free long porn videos - free porn clip samples - free membership porn videos - absolutely free porn videos - free porn thumbnail - free porn movie downloads - free movie trailers porn - porn free download - free milf porn videos - free milf - free clip xxx - free porn star videos - free porn videos - free erotic video clips - xxx vids - pass porn - free full length porn movie download - free porn movie - free movie sample - free long movie - sample video xxx - free porn movie membership - german porn site - porn game download - video preview porn - free preview porn videos - free full porn movie downloads - porn movie - hard core free porn - free long sex video - free porn gallery - dutch porn free - porn free trial - free japanese porn videos - porn video - porn videos-com - free videos - free porn cam - porn trial - free preview porn video - free video clip - xxx free mpeg - free anal video - full length porn for free - credit card porn - porn membership - free sample trailer
free sex - tamil sex - sex trailer - free sex trailer - illustrated sex stories - sex clip - password sex - free sex clip - free sex film - hard sex - porn clip - sex vids - sex password - free sex vids - free illustrated sex stories - trailer sex - free online sex games - free trailer sex - free sex video samples - free sex cam - sample sex video - free sample sex videos - sex video sample - clip sex - free sample sex video - free xxx mpeg - lesbian sex videos - free sex downloads - free audio sex stories - film sex free - video clip sex - xxx mpeg - sex trailer free - free sample videos - sex stories tamil - sample sex movie - celebrity sex - free sex web cams - sex position photo - free sex preview - sex video preview - free sex movie clip - movie clip sex - japan free sex - free xxx vids - free sex movie sample - tamil sex sites - group sex video - free sex show - video sample - video sample sex - free celebrity sex - group sex pic - vintage sex - free sample video sex - sex video trailer - sex position - tamil sex site - free sex mpeg - sex game - free full length sex movie - free sex tape - free milf videos - sex vintage - hard core xxx - free preview sex - sample video sex - free sex movie trailers - free movie - free long sex videos - oral sex photo - free group sex videos - free group sex - old woman sex - japan sex photo - long sex movie - free sex video trailer - free password sex - free sex sample video - sex thumb - free asian downloads - free audio sex - tamil nude - free tamil sex stories - sex free film - free live sex - free movie clip sex - xxx hard - free sex sample videos - sex movie - hard sex photo - sex japan - free sex position - sex photo woman - free japanese sex movie - sex clip free - free sample sex - free anal sex videos - free lesbian downloads - erotica free - photo sex - free sex games online - free interracial sex - interracial sex - free group sex video - free photo sex - sex tamil - free tamil sex - free full length videos - sex site password - free sex sample movie - free clip sex - sex photo - password sex site - free sex movie - desi sex - trailer sex free - free japan sex - free online sex game - live sex show free - free milf downloads - free porn star mpegs - sex film - sex position videos - position sex - star xxx - free sample sex movie - photo woman sex - teen movie sample - sample movie sex - free japanese sex videos - sex position picture - free sex photo - sex free preview - free milf - free clip xxx - free sex chat rooms - sex photo japan - sex free japan - free sex japan - xxx vids - free xxx clip - japanese sex free - free movie sample - free video sample sex - free erotica - sex video free sample - sample video xxx - tamil sex picture - free sex thumb - tamil sex video - sex free sample - free xxx thumb - sex game free - bride sex - free xxx sample - photo sex japan - illustrated sex - explicit sex - foot sex - long free sex movie - free erotic stories - free live sex chats - live sex cam - free sex movie clips - tamil sex movie - japan free sex movie - download film sex - film sex download - clip sex free - free anal trailer - sex video clip free - woman photo sex - free video clip sex - audio sex free - tamil sex photo
Best XXX Sites - Teen Cash - Gang Bang Squad -
Bang Boat - Gang Bang -
Milf Rriders - Oral Sex - Anal Sex
- Group Sex - Cum Shot - Free
Porn - Free Sex - Teen Slut - celebrity pics
anal sex free
bondage
free gay picture

Treatment with phentermine is
used for weight loss. Anyone can buy
phentermine at his local pharmacy. There is also a
cheap phentermine at some online
pharmacies. When you buy online
phentermine you should read the
phentermine side effects first.
http://www.buy--phentermine.ws

7041 http://slots-online.fateback.com/roulette.htm

online roulette

The house is full of excitement texas holdem as the local weekend party scene is in full swing. texas hold em ranch-style hacienda with its circular texas holdem poker isn't usually one of my regular free texas holdem stops. It belongs to my dad's boss whose daughter is in my texas holdem rules class and I promised him I'd check it out. I'm a good son.free texas hold em The place is packed; the driveway and the entire street are lined with texas hold em rules , their hoods still glistening with texas hold em poker. You can hear the creaking and metallic sounds of texas holdem online the partiers opening and slamming their online texas holdem, engines revving up and shutting down, and people free online texas holdem. Other folks are content to linger ouside chatting texas holdem strategy and how to play texas holdem under the stars of a crisp October night. As I knock on the door, I can feel free texas holdem pokerthe vibration from the pounding bass coming from inside the house. When the door opens , the free online texas hold em resonates in my ears and I get a texas hold em tips this might be the start of no limit texas hold em after all.

7559 http://www.e-texas-holdem.info

texas holdem

Got here Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.x-fioricet.com

Ultram Generic Fioricet most likely reduces heart attack risk by irreversibly blocking the enzyme COX-1 online fioricet, thereby impairing the ability fioricet of platelets in the blood to form clots, Dr. Tobias Kurth of Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, and others explain in the American Heart Association's journal, fioricet Circulation. NSAIDs buy fioricet also lock on to COX-1, but the effect is reversible. Cheap Generic Fioricet or visit this site: http://www.top-fioricet.com

Best deal Phentermine Online and Adipex Online is the fastest growing online source for Buy Phentermine and Buy Adipex prescription medication that you Phentermine can trust to get your order out quickly and privately. We provide info for Cheap Adipex and Cheap Phentermine. Visit this site: http://www.hot-phentermine.com/

Seasonale online site.

I think that would interest you: http://www.forex-online-now.com/forex, http://www.forex-online-now.com/forex-trading, http://www.forex-online-now.com/foreign-exchange.

the best online casino bonus offers and much more online right here today!

6044 http://www.e-texas-hold-em.com

texas hold em

5311 I agree wholeheartedly. Good thing I run a home based business

3443 http://www.rapid-debt-consolidation.com

consolidate debt

4928 http://video-poker.uni.cccheck it out! Video Poker yabba dabba doo
online Video Poker

Fioricet prescription info site.

Fioricet prescription info site.

The house is full of excitement texas holdem as the local weekend party scene is in full swing. texas hold em ranch-style hacienda with its circular texas holdem poker isn't usually one of my regular free texas holdem stops. It belongs to my dad's boss whose daughter is in my texas holdem rules class and I promised him I'd check it out. I'm a good son.free texas hold em The place is packed; the driveway and the entire street are lined with texas hold em rules , their hoods still glistening with texas hold em poker. You can hear the creaking and metallic sounds of texas holdem online the partiers opening and slamming their online texas holdem, engines revving up and shutting down, and people free online texas holdem. Other folks are content to linger ouside chatting texas holdem strategy and how to play texas holdem under the stars of a crisp October night. As I knock on the door, I can feel free texas holdem pokerthe vibration from the pounding bass coming from inside the house. When the door opens , the free online texas hold em resonates in my ears and I get a texas hold em tips this might be the start of no limit texas hold em after all.

Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate - Cheap
Generic Ambien AMBIEN () ZOLPIDEM 10mg (50) $135.00 10mg (80) 10mg (120) Ambien is use for
http://www.ambien-i.com short-term treatment of insomnia, or difficulty falling asleep. (amien ambuen anbien amiwn anbiem ambiem ambuen ambin anbin amben anben teatment sedative sadative sedativ)
Cheap Ambien is a type of sleeping pill from a newer group of drugs called imidzopyridines. It is effective for short-term treatment of insomnia in adults. All symptoms of insomnia can be treated with Ambien. Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate -
Cheap Generic Ambien cheap Buy
Ambien is able to help you get a great nights rest when pain, discomfort, or just stress in your life will not let you sleep well. Ambien is a prescription that will require you to complete the online medical form so that your prescription for Ambien can be written and you can then order your prescription.

Do not take Soma Addiction if you have acute intermittent
porphyria. Soma Pharmacy  is habit forming and should only be used under close
supervision if you have an alcohol or drug addiction. Before taking  Online
Soma tell your doctor if you have kidney disease, liver disease, an ulcer
in your stomach or intestines, a bleeding or blood-clotting Cheap
Soma disorder, urinary
retention, an enlarged prostate, hypothyroidism, a head injury, or Addison's
disease. You may not be able to take aspirin / carisoprodol /Soma 
codeine, or you
may require a lower dose or special monitoring during treatment if you have soma
any
of the conditions listed above.

1265 this is a great plae to play texas holdem online. feel free to try out the http://texas-holdem.big.gb.com for big bonuses! texas holdem poker

Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate -
Cheap Generic Ambien AMBIEN () ZOLPIDEM 10mg (50) $135.00 10mg (80) 10mg (120) Ambien is use for short-term treatment of insomnia, or difficulty falling asleep. (amien ambuen anbien amiwn anbiem ambiem ambuen ambin anbin amben anben teatment sedative sadative sedativ)
Buy Ambien is a type of sleeping pill from a newer group of drugs called imidzopyridines. It is effective for short-term treatment of insomnia in adults. All symptoms of insomnia can be treated with Ambien.. Ambien - Buy Ambien Online -
Free Shipping - Cheap Generic Ambien cheap Ambien is able to help you get a great
http://www.buy-ambien-free-shipping.us
nights rest when pain, discomfort, or just stress in your life will not let you sleep well.
Buy Ambien is a prescription that will require you to complete the online medical form so that your prescription for Ambien can be written and you can then
Buy Order Ambien order your prescription. You do not have to see the
Ambien Buy Order doctor in order to place an order online. The medical form combined with the medical consultation will enable us to provide you with the prescription Ambien.

8822 http://www.e-roulette.info

Do not take Soma Addiction if you have acute intermittent
porphyria. Soma Pharmacy  is habit forming and should only be used under close
supervision if you have an alcohol or drug addiction. Before taking  Online
Soma tell your doctor if you have kidney disease, liver disease, an ulcer
in your stomach or intestines, a bleeding or blood-clotting Cheap
Soma disorder, urinary
retention, an enlarged prostate, hypothyroidism, a head injury, or Addison's
disease. You may not be able to take aspirin / carisoprodol /Soma 
codeine, or you
may require a lower dose or special monitoring during treatment if you have soma
any
of the conditions listed above.

Buy Soma Now is a muscle relaxant. It works by blocking nerve impulses (or pain
sensations) that are sent to your brain. Buy
Cheap Soma is a pain reliever. Codeine is
in a class of drugs called narcotic analgesics and it works by Buy
Soma Online changing the way
your body feels pain. Aspirin / carisoprodol / codeine is used, along with Buy
Soma rest
and physical therapy, to treat injuries and other Soma
painful muscular conditions.
Aspirin / Soma Buy Online may also be used for purposes other than those listed here.

The house is full of excitement texas holdem as the local weekend party scene is in full swing. texas hold em ranch-style hacienda with its circular texas holdem poker isn't usually one of my regular free texas holdem stops. It belongs to my dad's boss whose daughter is in my texas holdem rules class and I promised him I'd check it out. I'm a good son.free texas hold em The place is packed; the driveway and the entire street are lined with texas hold em rules , their hoods still glistening with texas hold em poker. You can hear the creaking and metallic sounds of texas holdem online the partiers opening and slamming their online texas holdem, engines revving up and shutting down, and people free online texas holdem. Other folks are content to linger ouside chatting texas holdem strategy and how to play texas holdem under the stars of a crisp October night. As I knock on the door, I can feel free texas holdem pokerthe vibration from the pounding bass coming from inside the house. When the door opens , the free online texas hold em resonates in my ears and I get a texas hold em tips this might be the start of no limit texas hold em after all.

Buy Soma Here is a muscle relaxant. It works by blocking nerve impulses (or pain
sensations) that are sent to your brain. Buy
Cheap Soma is a pain reliever. Codeine is
in a class of drugs called narcotic analgesics and it works by Buy
Soma Online changing the way
your body feels pain. Aspirin / carisoprodol / codeine is used, along with Buy
Soma rest
and physical therapy, to treat injuries and other Soma
painful muscular conditions.
Aspirin / Soma Buy Online may also be used for purposes other than those listed here.

Prozac online info site.

Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate - Cheap
Generic Ambien AMBIEN () ZOLPIDEM 10mg (50) $135.00 10mg (80) 10mg (120) Ambien is use for
http://www.ambien-ambien.us short-term treatment of insomnia, or difficulty falling asleep. (amien ambuen anbien amiwn anbiem ambiem ambuen ambin anbin amben anben teatment sedative sadative sedativ)
Cheap Ambien is a type of sleeping pill from a newer group of drugs called imidzopyridines. It is effective for short-term treatment of insomnia in adults. All symptoms of insomnia can be treated with Ambien. Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate -
Cheap Generic Ambien cheap Buy
Ambien is able to help you get a great nights rest when pain, discomfort, or just stress in your life will not let you sleep well. Ambien is a prescription that will require you to complete the online medical form so that your prescription for Ambien can be written and you can then order your prescription.

Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate - Cheap
Generic Ambien AMBIEN () ZOLPIDEM 10mg (50) $135.00 10mg (80) 10mg (120) Ambien is use for
http://www.ambien-ambien.us short-term treatment of insomnia, or difficulty falling asleep. (amien ambuen anbien amiwn anbiem ambiem ambuen ambin anbin amben anben teatment sedative sadative sedativ)
Cheap Ambien is a type of sleeping pill from a newer group of drugs called imidzopyridines. It is effective for short-term treatment of insomnia in adults. All symptoms of insomnia can be treated with Ambien. Ambien - Buy Ambien Online - Zolpidem Tartrate -
Cheap Generic Ambien cheap Buy
Ambien is able to help you get a great nights rest when pain, discomfort, or just stress in your life will not let you sleep well. Ambien is a prescription that will require you to complete the online medical form so that your prescription for Ambien can be written and you can then order your prescription.

2556 http://video-poker.6x.to play video poker online

6561 phentermine texas
hold em

Go there buy vigrx to be there. Try to enlarge your with vigrx to be here. Try to this review this VigRX to be there. And Go there online vigrx to be there. Go there cheap vigrx to be there.

4951 You only get one set of teeth. Take care of them with a good
dental plan. Dental
insurance is
money well spent. I sleep better since I signed up for my new dental insurance
plan.
Get yours at: http://dental-insurance-plan.freeservers.com/
http://www.online-sports-betting-source.com

online sports betting
Sports Betting Odds
Sports Betting Line
Football Sports Betting
NCAA Sports Betting
NFL Football Betting Line
American Football Betting
Online American Football Betting
Online Football Betting Lines
Online Sports Book
NFL Football Odds
NCAA Football Odds
Las Vegas Football Odds
2004 Super Bowl Odds
Sports Book Betting
Las Vegas Sports Book
Sports Book Odds
Internet Sports Gambling
Sports Betting Information
College Football Betting Odds
College Betting Line
NFL Point Spread
NCAA Point Spread
Super Bowl Point Spread
Vegas Point Spread
Legal Sports Betting
Online Betting Odds
Online Sports Book Betting
Online Sports Betting Site
home based business
home based business
opportunity

7751 http://online-poker-big.fateback.com online poker slots online poker texas holdem

Online Ionamin information.

Duduu all, fuck my siter and all online poker this is the case.
play poker poker  This is the rest.

443 http://online-poker.big.gb.com online poker
play online poker

Try this fun men online poker you think. play
free poker
ytyr wyw wy play poker game online for
ththt shs e sh jd free poker

the best online casinos

the best online casinos

3978 online casino games

Surely not a chance for you but online poker nevertheless try this.
Nice to see you play poker online nevertheless try this.

5873 You know anti wrinkle cream
can work Did you know online degree gets you jobs? online degrees

Remeron information.

6162 http://internet-poker.uni.cc internet poker
slots
video poker
texas holdem

Remeron online site.

In your free time, check the sites about black jack strategy trainer | black jack strategy trainer | http://www.editors-choice-2001.info/ | migraine medication | migraine medication | http://www.online-deal-drugstore.info/ | digoxin | digoxin | http://www.world