September 08, 2003

An Open Letter to Joan Houlihan

I sent the following e-mail to Joan Houlihan a few moments ago. She has been writing a series of uninformed and stupid articles at Web del Sol. I've ignored most of them but she mentioned Skanky Possum in a recent attack on Fence. See the article at http://www.webdelsol.com/LITARTS/Boston_Comment/ for the larger context.

*
Dear Joan,

After reading your "post-post dementia" article today I wondered out loud with my co-editor at Skanky Possum, Hoa Nguyen: "is she brain-damaged?" "She," let's be clear, since you need such clarity and "coherence," is you, Joan Houlihan. This isn't meant ad hominem. It's a real question. Your obsession with meaning and coherence is foolish when we're saturated at every moment with an over abundance and over statement of meaning and coherence. Perhaps, actually, it's only in meaninglessness new life and energy will emerge from the dead weight our culture sloughs.

I won't waste time addressing most of your asinine and labored arguments. I just want to make a few comments regarding your gross stupidities and generalizations.

For one, it's hilarious that Skanky Possum is considered by you an "avant-garde-establishment journal." I mean, it's an honor to register on your "post-post dementia" radar. A day after George Bush sold us more security in the Middle East for 87 billion dollars I see nothing but dementia on the domestic landscape. Halliburton's "meaning" and "coherence" escalates a decline in human relations, meaningful or not—whatever your definition. What is meaningful in a post-human, post-American global economy fuelled by fear, terror and authoritarian claims on personal and domestic rights? From the academic halls to the littered bus stop behind our house, we live in a nation really beyond dementia. We're in retreat from reality because it's hideous to behold. And if poetry begins to look more and more like the complicated screens on CNN, it's because that's the world most people live in. That projected reality is more complex and dangerous than the static narrative voids you might embrace. Either way, mainstream verse, Halliburton, CNN—it's all a dead end anyway. Time to find new sources of hope!

I'm sorry. This probably doesn't make much sense to you. Let's take another approach. There are things about Fence I don't like either. Sometimes the poetry doesn't work for me because it's boring, uninspired, dull-witted and formulaic in ways that are different from poetic formulas you might appreciate. There's a lot to say about the drivel presented as poetry on both sides of the mainstream and post-avant (Ron Silliman's term) fence. I don't understand your reactionary reduction of argumentation, as if semantic issues alone were at stake when it should be our breath and blood. Fence sometimes reflects a certain grad school nullity of issues, and its editorial commentary can be rather uninspired and careless. But it also presents interesting and occasionally useful constellations of poetics based in the experience of contemporary culture. It registers with some egalitarian bias a world, like it or not, that is actual, active and fluid with crosscurrents of ideas, perceptions and integrated claims for language in this new century.

You claim that Fence, New American Writing, Slope, 3rd Bed and Skanky Possum "contain a poetry and an implied or stated editorial aesthetic that posits itself as a rejection of the "mainstream" poetry ethic, that is, of the poetry that existed from last year all the way back to Beowulf, the kind of poetry that favors parsable syntax, drama and story, tension and resolution, epiphany and symbolism, connected imagery, strong, recognizable voice or narration, and some impact of either an intellectual or emotional nature." Actually, historically, the writers we publish and the work we most admire present no more radically different challenges to contemporary poetry audiences (small to be sure) than did Chaucer, Herrick or Coleridge to theirs. If you can't see the connection, it's your failure of understanding and deep reading in the literature of the past. There are clear links and relationships from Herrick say through Williams, Stein, Creeley and even Charles Bernstein.

Speaking of Bernstein, it's ironic to see Skanky Possum mentioned in your article. While he managed the Poetics Listserv at Buffalo in the late '90s, I developed a reputation as being anti-Language for my critical and public (sometimes asinine) challenges and critiques of Bernstein and other Language-oriented writers. And to this day I hold critical reservations about much of that work. But I would hold it up with laurels and sing the praise of Language Poetry in opposition to your static, inactive ideals of poetry. You represent in the words of Bernstein the "Official Verse Culture," which is no more interesting than Ford commercials, and far less intelligible to me. I often wonder how an adult in this country can still be so afraid of issues of economy, politics, the occult and anything else located in the particularities of our moment in history. Poetry is a complex occasion of forces. Those forces alone drive and determine the poem. Anything short of those diverse forces fail totally to engage in language at this point. How is it someone can pay their money to line up and look at Picasso's Guernica but they can't read something as innocuous as Fence without paroxysms and sputterings of disapproval? Speaking of tradition, there were people once who thought language was God, and its movement alone through the world gave it meaning and relation. Art, poetry and music at their best seek a restoration of an awareness of the world as an active, living space—every motion, movement or thought rich in correspondence and relations of diverse, comprehensive meanings. The word perhaps is the most intimate germ of exposure we have. We are interested in limits, exposure and the true testings of ourselves in the world to achieve a coherence stretched through the Unknown wilderness of American experience. The intensity of meaning, its stretched possibilities, engage the kinetic field of human relations as deeply now as Coleridge's mysterious and lovely "Frost at Midnight," say. The kind of stasis in the poem you promote is equal only to Death, and that is something you can save for the next big conference or whatever it is you're aspiring to.

I want to stretch your perceptive modus, which is the issue here. But I'll take another approach instead. Your arguments represent one path within the academic and mainstream publishing markets against another strain, Language poetry and other so-called avant-garde poetics, equally increasingly institutionalized within established formats. Skanky Possum receives funding only through its subscribers and other random though generous patrons. Our allegiances are to vital works of poetry as they are made manifest within the climate of America we share. In addition to a decline of meaning—not just in poetry, but throughout the culture generally—you might consider the loss of feeling and deadening of affect that plagues so many aspects of our culture. Educate yourself on the diverse forms surrounding us. Please consider these complex occasions of forces before marching forward again with your demented essays on poetry. If you want specifics on these forces, find out yourself. Like Blake said, "To create a little flower is the labour of ages."

In the meantime, editors at Fence, Skanky Possum, New American Writing and Slope can "Listen to the fools reproach! it is a kingly title!"

Sincerely,
Dale Smith
editor Skanky Possum

Posted by Dale at September 8, 2003 06:33 PM
Comments

thanx for the Open Letter!

i exchanged a few emails with Joan
earlier back in the series. i could
not believe she could really be so
prejudiced as not to allow the
existence of degrees of excellence
in a genre not to her taste. needless
to say, she did not see the light...

but i will say, her essay shows the benefit
of a program i myself will not allow
any excellence whatsoever to--SPELLCHECK.

Posted by: graywyvern on September 8, 2003 11:40 PM

Right on, Dale! Thanks for calling attention (via the Poetics List) to these boring complaints & your much more interesting response. Oh, and congratulations on joining the Avant-Garde Division of the Poetry Establishment, whatever that means.

Posted by: Mark DuCharme on September 9, 2003 05:58 AM

Yeah: Houlihan cooked her own coherent goose fat this time. Rock on, Dale!

Posted by: chris murray on September 9, 2003 10:56 AM

Dale, you're a kind man for even taking the time to address such a silly and self-important poet (her column is "popular and provacative"?). It's not even based in Boston. She's in Concord, draining some sad suburbanites of their disposable income because she claims to have the inside track on becoming a successful poet.

Look at the online brochure:

"Is there a single most effective way to learn writing poetry? To develop and revise a poem? There is. A significant amount of writing craft and technique exists that is known only to a relatively small number of people. This craft and technique is not taught, not even at the college MFA level. Given that such craft and technique is best learned from the works of those poets who originated and/or utilized it most effectively, an examination of these works in detail will provide participants with the comprehensive knowledge they need to transform their own poems.

Is there a single best way to approach getting published? There is. Our poetry workshops focus on the editorial perspective, reader response, and instructor analysis to facilitate poetry publication."

I mean, that's just sad.

Obviously, the secrets she claims to possess have not done well by her.

I once passed a painter on the sidewalk who ranted while he filled the canvas. "Matisse, Kline, Grant Wood.... they have nothing on me! I am the greatest painter!" No one corrected, poor guy, but a few looked like they wanted to drop some change into his coffee can of brushes. But he was too scary.

Houlihan seems to be in a similar position.

After all, why attack FENCE magazine? What is she afraid of that she has to use those petty little put downs of poets who do not have her years of wisdom and experience in the poe-biz? Is it jealousy that scares he so, that makes her feel threatened?

As the other Possum once said, "Is it the poetry in Fence / that trips her self-defense?"

- db

Posted by: the poker on September 9, 2003 02:22 PM

Paul Valery put it best:
"Everything changes, except the avantgarde."

(Or the "post-avant," or the School of Noisiness, etc. . . .)

Posted by: Bill Knott on September 9, 2003 02:26 PM

Great response. I always enjoy when critics, like Joan, pull out the old garden hose to try and clean up the "new" poetries. They look so silly.

Posted by: Ian Wilson on September 9, 2003 05:08 PM

Because we live in such a complex time, does it follow that poetry must be similarly complex?
Doesn't I.A. Richards' 'Imitative Fallacy' render that too tautological? Anyway, wouldn't an oppositional poetry strive for simplicity, for the colloquial modes and values of the Antipoem? Your lineage—Williams, Stein, Creeley, Bernstein—could be amended to: Williams, Parra, Rozewicz, Creeley, et al, in a tradition whose ideal would be the poem-as- accessible-to-an-average-reader. . . or at least written in an anti-elitist mode which is intended for a wider audience. (Mayakovsky: "I set my heel / on the throat of my own song. . .")

Fence Magazine solicited me to submit some poems to them, and I refused. . . . most of the poetry they publish seems to me to be elitist, intended deliberately for a coterie of initiates who wish to remain holier than thou in the Mallarmean sense: "Everything that wishes to remain holy must surround itself with mystery" is the commandment you "post-avants" in the School of Noisiness must never disobey. . . . And so you gird-guard your work with difficulties and densities and obscurities intended to keep the unholy, the masses, far away. . . Why? According to you, because the zeitgeist demands it. . . . The age demands it. (A couplet by Ernest Hemingway comes to mind: "And in the end the age was handed / The sort of shit that it demanded.")

All the other comments posted here support your position. . . . I hope there's room for an alternative view.


Posted by: Bill Knott on September 9, 2003 08:05 PM

Bill, of course there's room for alternate views. And I've got no problem with simplicity. But this meaning vs. meaningless, coherence vs. its opposite debate is just too useless to continue. A poem functions by virtue of its own evidence. The poem I think is indifferent to issues of simplicity or complexity. Its an enironment unto itself. A living thing. To address it other is reductive and wastes a lot of time. Hence, Houlihan can only sputter without ever reaching any true depth--she can't so it seems accept the evidence of the poem. So she stretches it into quibbles with "meaning."

Thanks, everyone, for your terrific notes....

Posted by: Dale on September 9, 2003 08:35 PM

Doesn't your argument in favor of complexity just reiterate and echo what Eliot wrote back in 1921: "It appears likely that poets in our civilization, as it exists at present, must be difficult. Our civilization comprehends great variety and complexity, and this variety and complexity, playing upon a refined sensibility,
must produce various and complex results. The poet must become more and more comprehensive, more allusive, more indirect, in order to force, to dislocate if necessary, language into his meaning."

——The "refined" souls who publish in Fence certainly obey that dictum, indirectly forcing the dislocations of language into a lack of meaning. Such purism is its own reward, I guess. . . . (according to adamant right-wing Christian conservatives, only a "remnant" will or can be saved when the Rapture occurs. . . .)

And what would WC Williams say to Eliot above? Certainly Williams presents "variety and complexity", but in a diction and voice accessible to a reader who hasn't been theorified, hasn't been initiated into the rituals and intricacies of some supposedly Avant tradition.

"The poem is an environment unto itself"? Is that what used to be called 'autotelic'? Is that what Gottfried Benn meant back in the 1920s when his ideal was to write "the absolute poem, the poem without faith. The poem without hope, the poem addressed to no one, the poem made of words which you assemble in a fascinating way". . . . ('Poesie pure' is another applicable term from the old days.)

"Accept the evidence of the poem"?
——that reminds me of an aphorism by Juan Ramon Jimenez:
"One must cultivate above all the will to reject."


Posted by: Bill Knott on September 9, 2003 10:13 PM

Bill, maybe you should check an issue of Skanky Possum to see what you're dealing with. Also, WCW's work from the 1920s, Kore in Hell, Spring and All, etc, is some of the most radical prose writing of the century, comparable, though from another direction, to Stein.

I don't know how "refined" the souls are at Fence. And that magazine doesn't need me to defend it. I'm just amazed by the failure of imagination when it comes to critical discussions of poetry. Usually, I'd prefer to use specific poems and examples. But what's the point. You seem to have an agenda to promote.

Posted by: Dale Smith on September 9, 2003 11:37 PM

Because I don't agree with you, I have an "agenda"? Why agenda? What's wrong with "opinion"?

In my opinion, or agenda, Houlihan isn't your real problem, anyway. . . . She's just a strawperson you've propped up to take easy potshots at. . . .

Your real problem is Wislawa Szymborska . . . and Tanikawa Shintaro, and Carol Ann Duffy and Sharon Olds and Billy Collins and other poets around the globe who through their mastery of the Antipoem are able to reach a wide readership. . .

The tradition of the Antipoem is just as viable as that of your two competing camps, your School of Noisiness and your School of Quietude, those mirror realms. The Antipoem is the third way, the alternative to your stale either/or.

Those in the Antipoet tradition would include Mayakovsky, Brecht, Parra, late Neruda, late Desnos, Prevert, WC Williams, Rozewicz, Herbert, and other Eastern European poets, early Ungaretti, much of Moore and Bishop, more of Creeley than you might admit, Hans Magnus Enzenberger, etcet etcet, the list could go on and on to include poets from every major language. . . .

The Antipoem refuses to fit into the binary us-against-them system set up by both of you, you SoN's and SoQ's.

You may be on the right side of Fence magazine and J.D. McClatchy on the wrong, but I don't want to be on either.


Posted by: Bill Knott on September 9, 2003 11:59 PM

Bill, fine, opinion. Whatever. Houlihan set herself up for my comments by including my magazine as an example of something she loathes. Collins et al can keep to their hordes of adoring fans. I don't care. There's no fence as I see it. No first way second or third. Poem. Anti-poem. It doesn't interest me. There are individual practices of art. Again, it's the integrity of each poem that counts. Diverse responses within occasions of forces supplied by the culture we live in. I'm not interested in academic demarcations, party lines, etc. You kick ass or you don't.

Posted by: Dale Smith on September 10, 2003 12:21 AM

I don't believe Billy Collins or Sharon Olds has anything to do with WCW or the late Neruda. Or Mayakovsky. This is not the "anti-poem," it is the "lite" poem. It is nice to know that the late Bill Knott is still around, though! I used to read his books in the 1970s when I first started reading poetry.

Posted by: Jonathan Mayhew on September 10, 2003 04:28 PM

It’s disheartening to hear Bill Knott resort to the default charge of elitism: i.e., that experimental poets “gird-guard [their] work with difficulties and densities and obscurities intended to keep the unholy, the masses, far away.”  This has become such a ready-to-hand dismissal, and it’s frustrating because it’s so patently not the case—or if it is the case, it is yet more the case with the rarified philosophy of “mastery” espoused by people like Houlihan in her brochure (“Is there a single most effective way to learn writing poetry? To develop and revise a poem? There is. A significant amount of writing craft and technique exists that is known only to a relatively small number of people”).  Fence and Skanky Possum are no more or less guilty of elitism than Poetry or APR or any other establishment journals.  Certainly there are many wonderful poems that can be “gotten” by any reasonably literate reader on one reading; many of them, in fact, are by “experimental” poets, and appear in magazines like Fence and SP.  On the other hand, there is plenty of “mainstream” verse out there that presents every bit as much of an intimidating and alienating challenge to the casual reader as anything by Jackson Mac Low or Joan Retallack.  The difference is that such verse flaunts its elitism in the form of institutionally approved (e.g., “academic”) cultural capital, dressed up as it were in respectable Sunday vest and loafers, whereas (some of) the poems that Houlihan and Knott contemn are at least upfront about their own difficulty: that is, it does not as often disguise itself behind the facade of an accessible discursive form.

Like it or not, Fence appears to have become mainstream critics’ example of choice of a “typical” avant-garde publication (ironic, considering Fence’s idealistic goal of bridging the divide between camps, as per its title).  Those who charge it with inaccessibility, however, should acknowledge that one reason it has become possible to use it as such an example is its visibility: it is carried routinely by Borders and other large chain booksellers, and although I don’t know its sales figures, I’m guessing that it has quickly risen in popularity to rival some of the most popular and long-running poetry journals out there.  This can only mean that many people find it, well, accessible.  As Jim Behrle has pointed out, the fear of the opposition seems to be less that this evil experimental poetry will cause harm and confusion to the masses than that it will rather capture their attention more effectively than the establishment’s own tired, recycled product: that the New poetry will eat the Old.  This could only be a danger if there were, indeed, something in that New poetry that more than a few readers found appealing.  Reactionary critics ignore the fact of that appeal, and the conditions that make it appealing, at the risk of their own coherence.

Posted by: Kasey on September 10, 2003 05:27 PM

The problem with Fence (and similar publications) is not that it is elitist, but that it is not elitist enough. I've been reading too many tired quasi-surrealist prose-poems, often indistinguishable from one another, in such publications. I'd like to see editors justify what they publish by claiming that it is good work, not by resorting to some argument about what America needs in today's cultural climate.

And I'm all for Mallarmé, as well.

Posted by: Jonathan Mayhew on September 10, 2003 06:41 PM

Bill Knott: Many of us "post-avants" (whatever that really means) dearly love many of the poets you mention as exemplars of the Anti-poem. Many of us like your own poetry quite a bit, too. But in making such a polemical case for the "Anti-poem" tradition as formal and conceptual antidote to the "experimental" one, you seem to fall into the same reifications (a terrible word, can't think of another right now) you claim beset the "avant-garde."

Poetry is vast and manifold, as I know you must believe, and it can't be contained by any particular mode or style. Like in painting and sculpture, theatre and music, one has a wide --ever expanding-- spectrum of possibility, and different poets (different reading and writing communities, if you will) explore different ranges of the spectrum; some poets, even, are able to move back and forth across the spectrum and show great variety in their work.

The spectrum is mysterious. We place our hands on our chest and it looks like we are flying into ourselves. The problem is that a critic like Houlihan (her article is, frankly, an inept case of an argument that can be more competently made) wants to snip off part of the range, dismiss it out of hand. That's not good-- not in music, painting, poetry, or astronomy. Parra is great. Pessoa is great. Palmer is great. Etc. There is matter, and anti-matter, and dark matter, and who knows what else.

No?

Kent

Posted by: Kent Johnson on September 10, 2003 07:04 PM

Dale, first, thanks for providing the occasion to enliven blog-talk. And I agree, it's great to see anything at all from Bill Knott, who, as Saint Geraud in the 70s, was an original questioner of poetic "authority" -- Bill, do you know Kent Johnson?

Elitism, though, Kasey, isn't the most interesting part of this dialogue for me -- I mean, I agree with Dale when he says that [we] either kick ass or not, and that schools and classifications are besides the point.

I'd say it slightly differently -- no matter what any of us say, or think, about poetry is secondary: the only goal or responsibility of the poet is to to write the poem. Anything that doesn't lead to that or generate that is besides the point.

I went back and read all of Houlihan's articles and actually liked them a lot. I mean, she's simplistic, but if that were the criterion, most of what gets said about poetry and poetics today would disappear immediately. At least she's asking the questions: "What determines quality in poems?" and "How do we determine whether an individual poem kicks ass or not?" Those are important questions. Her answers are silly, but at least she's asking.

To me, Frank O'Hara had the last word about these issues in *Personism* -- "but how can you really care if anybody gets it, or gets what it means, or if it improves them. Improves them for what? for death? Why hurry them along?" Similarly, Walter Benjamin wrote that no poem was intended for the reader.

Meanwhile, 87 billion dollars . . . for a diversionary war that created the conditions it was meant to address . . . from an unelected president whose offensive blather is spinning completely out of control . . . anything that taps into that particular surrealism, in poetry, would be welcome.

Posted by: Joe Safdie on September 10, 2003 07:07 PM

I opened up a collection of Bukowski
at random &


this is a fact


in the company of fools
we relax upon
ordinary embankments,
enjoy bad food, cheap
drink,
mingle with the men and
ladies from
hell.
in the company of fools
we throw days away like
paper napkins.

in this company
our music is loud and our
laughter
untrue.

we have nothing to lose
but our selves.

join us.
we are now
almost
the entire
world.

God bless
us.

Posted by: John Most on September 10, 2003 09:02 PM

I haven't had a long time to go over all of these comments, Dale's piece, etc. -- can't believe he even bothered to write her, frankly, she' unreadable.

But I did send her this email, which pulls quotes from one of her essays (the prose intro and extro) but uses her own "poem of the day" as a sample of bad poetry and not the stuff she herself used:

"It seems that not only are these words not best (or worst), they are not even among a specifically selected few. All word choices seem equally good (or bad) for this poem because the poem does not want to add up to anything, does not want to become anything, it only wants to resist becoming, to remain a baby in the continuum of its utterance. Therefore:

As Jimmie hears his cue: "The King of Croon,"
how does the fiddle do it? All seats,
--postures, giving muscle to melody--
empty. Even wallflowers crack their stone.

Tension dissolves in tone. Three short
revive and fling toward heaven. Only slaps
from bull strings land them back on the map.
A guileless mother hums as baby snorts

in her arm. The dream settles like beer foam
with a long bow that carries the weight of bones.
Reunion after exile. The sweet tune.
Strokes introduce the path back home.

How does the fiddle do it? Dead feet.
Then the trickster sustains our sympathy.

Why not? How does this version differ from the original? Only in its word order. And since the words don't count, since they don't have to be best, better, bad or in any way related to any potential meaning, my poem is as “good” as the original. In fact, I would argue my poem is the original—is, in fact, better than the original, because clearly this poem wants to be in quatrains! It wants to have the only interesting detail and the only character in the poem at the beginning, not the end. It is exactly the same poem, albeit with different word order—but neither set of words makes any difference to the meaning."

I added the bit about the quatrains and the interesting detail because, alas, I htink it's true.

Posted by: Mr. Arras on September 10, 2003 10:00 PM

A lot of people are deriding & dismissing Houlihan (as poet, as stylist, etc): not many are actually grappling with the substance of her sharp funny jabs.

Henry Gould

p.s. I never liked the phrase "kick ass" : it reminds me of car commercials for some reason. Poets should never resort to this phrase in future.

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 10, 2003 10:08 PM

I LIKE the phrase "kick ass" in this context, actually, because I think it gets to the bed-rock question, for all its crudity. I think Mr. Arras's critique is pretty cogent as well. Where is the substance in Houlihan's essays, anyway? I haven't found it yet.

Posted by: Jonathan Mayhew on September 10, 2003 11:00 PM

Car commercials are the poetry of the future, Henry.

The ugly new car commercial poetry eat your pretty old Dante poetry!

[teeth bared, hands curled like claws in scary attacking gesture:] RRRAAARRRR!

Ahem. Back to the matter at hand, I brought up elitism only because both Bill Knott & Joan Houlihan invoke that notion, but it‘s funny how the idea of defending experimental poetry against it sets off alarms: I agree that a lot of the poetry in Fence is soggy and uninteresting, but to say that this has something to do with it being either too elitist or not elitist enough is beside the point. The fact remains that its “accessibility” or lack thereof can only be imagined by critics like Houlihan in such terms.  I still think Jim Behrle has the core insight here: these critics are scared.  They invoke elitism and similar concepts that situate the poet in an open/closed relation to an idealized, absolute fantasy of General Audience, because they are themselves deeply invested in laying claim to that fantasy construct.  A quick glance at the essays produced in any freshman literature course on poetry at a typical college will disabuse anyone of the belief that mainstream verse of the kind that Houlihan champions is somehow more transparent, “reader-friendly,” than the “experimental” poetry in Fence and other journals.  It is, of course, if the readers have been carefully indoctrinated for years in precisely the reading strategies and value-systems required to elicit the correct response; but to claim that these strategies and values are “natural” is nonsense.  For a considerable percentage of college-age readers, Yeats’ “The Second Coming,” any given poem by Anthony Hecht, and Lyn Hejinian’s My Life are pretty much on the same level of difficulty (though that difficulty will manifest itself differently from example to example).  What the Houlihans want is control over which apparatus of interpretation and/or appreciation gets set up as the official one. And the clear implication there is that there can and should be only one.

Poets like Billy Collins, of course, come as close as any to achieving the level of transparent meaning that Houlihan says she values; it’s significant that these poets are the other half of the group that Houlihan attacks.  I don’t think much of the Collins-category of poets myself, but it’s interesting to note what they and the Fence category have in common: the ability to interest non-specialist readers. Collins appeals because he is entertaining and easy; the Fence poets because they are weird and “trippy.” For better or worse (for better and worse), these poets are marketable.  This is what makes them threatening both to the Houlihans and the diehard avant-gardists.

I don’t have a conclusion to draw from all this.  I just want to point out how absurd it is to argue that the poems in Fence are inaccessible, that their accessibility is what Houlihan really fears.  As Jonathan points out, this doesn’t necessarily or even usually make the poetry in Fence good, but if we’re going to ask questions about what does make contemporary poetry “good” or “bad,” Houlihan’s questions are not the right ones.

Posted by: Kasey on September 10, 2003 11:41 PM

Thanks for these kick ass posts. (Sorry, Henry, writing on the fly here--do you agree with Auden that poets should dress like business men?). BKS is right, I probably shouldn't have addressed Houlihan's unreadable piece (disagreeing with Joe and Henry--nothing of value there I see because whatever of interest may be embedded is that--stuck in deep mud). But Hoa and I were having conversations around the meaning vs. non-meaning argument after the new Best Am Po came out, and after reading a recent article in Harper's about the new edition of the Norton Anthology. There seems mostly to be some kind of turf war within the academy, and a battle for market shares, to put it in biz terms. So Houlihan's piece brought up a lot of things we were thinking anyway. What does she know about Skanky Possum anyway?

I see poets like medieval artisans. We should know our critical and creative tools. Use them. Address diverse experiences.

Yeah, well, I'm sputtering now....
Dale

Posted by: Dale Smith on September 11, 2003 12:16 AM

Terrific responses from a number of people (except: Bill Knott: how can Collins and Olds be compared with any international poetic mode? as I see it, central to their appeal is that they're stubbornly provincial, American, suburban poets, and confirm those values as held by their readership...) The problem with this damn debate, as it constantly reappears in different venues, is that many of those involved are fighting about power and the social under the guise of an argument about aesthetics (not that the two are unrelated...) I went and read Houlihan's ridiculous columns and that sad workshop ad, which differs from the claims of vanity-press shills only in being less honest. Work which one dosen't understand is threatening; and that reaction will shift registers from cognitive dissonance to social anxiety very quickly when one's "profession" is involved. The ability to admire, take pleasure from work which one can't write about from a position of mastery is crucial--if one cultivates it, it becomes central to one's reading experience; if one dosen't, I suspect, one ends up hardening into a Houlihan......

Posted by: Nick LoLordo on September 11, 2003 12:42 AM

This is a great run of blogging, I must say.

Does anyone recall Nick Hornsby's somewhat infamous review of Radiohead a couple of years back in the New Yorker? In it he argued that the band was getting too far out there musically and lyrically and should return to writing albums that were accessible to a larger audience. Anything else was unnacceptable given Thom Yorke's talents as a pop songsmith. It didn't matter to the critic that they were making their best music to date and that it was still selling well. I think my response at the time was "But who cares? He's doing what he wants to, what he can do, and what he cares to do." Then I thought "Guys who used to work at used record stores shouldn't be writing music reviews." I'd have to explain that at length another time.

Best,
Mike C.

Posted by: Mike County on September 11, 2003 03:44 AM

"Hardening into a Houlihan"? Well, there's an image that appeals to all five senses.

It's striking to watch everyone (myself included) jumping into this case more as psychologists, trying to figure out the perpetrator's mindset and motivations, as opposed to actually looking at the victimless crime. I know it would be a jump of goodwill to take her critique seriously enough to refute its charges, but it could be quite effective . . .

Re: the "the experimental poets are going to steal away both of your readers" argument. The whole market-share analogy I think is a little off. I think the lack of a market share is part of what feeds the vehemence. In more popular arts, it seems that if a singer, novelist, filmmaker isn't critically prestigious, he or she has the consolation of a market, or potential market. Margot Tennenbaum: "your reviews aren't that good." Eli Cash: "yeah, but the sales are." Almost seems like an agreement: Gwen Stefani, you get the cash. Cat Power, you get the reviews. Beck, you get both. Without the sales, it seems the only currency is prestige, and if (as David Antin and Charles Bernstein say in their interview book I'm nosing through) innovation arises from failure--that new tools are invented when the old ones don't work--it seems the mere existence of Bad Mickey Television Sock or whatever experimental journal is itself a critique of mainstream poetics. If Houlihan is trying to counter this implied argument that her poetics are no longer valid, then it seems very likely she'll try to show that these new tools don't work at all. That they are, as the layman suspects, hollow tricks. Obviously, people here aren't convinced, but I wonder if the stray English major or high school teacher will be, and Ms. Houlihan will consider it all a success. But I'm sure someone's composing a "Who's Afraid of Gertrude Stein" counterpiece right now.

Posted by: Tony Tost on September 11, 2003 03:54 AM

Is there really a journal called Bad Mickey Television Sock?
 

Posted by: Kasey on September 11, 2003 04:26 AM

Not yet.

Posted by: Tony Tost on September 11, 2003 07:34 AM

I think what really bugs people is how efficiently Houlihan takes down sacred cows. Where BKS finds her "unreadable" I don't follow - is she too concise for your taste? Not prolix & patronizing enough? Her little essay on Langpo is classic demolition. Her critique of the bland & cliched accessible-poetics of a Billy Collins is right on. Her blast against the empty, aesthetically-null verbiage of such poems as represented in Fence was also a bull's-eye.

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 01:35 PM

Does Bad Mickey Television Sock exist?

It does now.

http://badmickeytelevisionsock.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Jordan on September 11, 2003 03:01 PM

Henry, JH is too discursive, too generalizing and dismissive to read with any sustained interest or enthusiasm. But she can share her opinions and write as she likes. It's the core argument, again, I want to draw attention to, and that I find fault with (besides the fact she probably hasn't even looked at a copy of our magazine): "meaning" vs. "meaninglessness." "Coherence vs. "Incoherence." "Simplicity" vs. "Complexity."

Poems present their own evidence and mostly poems are indifferent to these binaries. What we could talk about instead are the MFA programs generating bland, uninspired, formulaic writing from diverse backgrounds of instituionalized BLAH. (Again, you can't entirely blame a "program" for a disfunction evident at all levels of our society).

Fence manages to round up a lot of that Blah. But so do many other journals. And editors print poems for a variety for reasons. There are a lot of great poets out there working through different sets of problems. Unfortunately (or not) there are many more mediocre, careless and thoughtless people pushing their work too. Houlihan's piece creates a false reality. It's the desperate act of someone who wants to seem in the midst of things. She loves system, it seems, not poetry.

Dale

Posted by: Poss on September 11, 2003 03:24 PM

Dale, the fact that MFA programs & magazines of all stripes produce a lot of blaah does not counter the sting of various Houlihan arrows, ie. that the imitative obfuscation of much post-avantism actively discourages interpretation, or that the "accessibility" factor of Billy-Collins style work is not really of (aesthetic) value. Yes, she's using a blunt-instrument style of criticism; yet I consider it important & valuable that in doing so she points writers away from coterie mannerisms, toward some fundamental & longstanding literary values.

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 03:49 PM


Dale,

I've been following this discussion with alot of interest and have to say your point about the binaries is excellent. Houlihan's range is super-narrow, she can't deal with poems that don't fit into the categories of "coherence" vs. incoherence", etc.

"Poems present their own evidence and mostly poems are indifferent to these binaries." I totally agree. Here's a good example of a poem that doesn't fit the Houlihan system, but is most definitely a poem (sorry about the formatting):


Have no


Nullarnee & Slavslatt

gris, gris, tenedor

(Ninakula, Ninakula)

forkyfull ort


Siwezi kusema Kiswahili!

Vipi? Nini? Nani? Ipi?


oaieyn as cooylyn


Faag eh!


And when it were a

_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

Thanks for a great discussion!

Kurt

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 03:51 PM

Kurt, I love this poem, especially the part about Icelandic chickens attacked by fleas at midnight. Here's one of mine:

BEFFLE

Gringo spiel ex-
trap -
you're -
late, late!

No I'm -

Ben Hare! Sheesh!

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 04:00 PM


And here's one for Houlihan:

"Listen to the drool re-pouch!
It is a tingly piddle!"

(Phhhhffft)

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 04:16 PM

"some fundamental & longstanding literary values" ? No

Thanks

What formulas could anyone suggest for such a thing? I want freedom

from the avant-garde and from

whatever Houlihan represents

or Billy Collins to use these dumb references.

Freedom to move forward by my nature toward whatever excellence I am capable of. You take a poem by ITS terms--failures too. Not formulas.

**

My positions are pretty clear. Packing for Chicago. Please come hear Skanky Possum co-editor Hoa Nguyen read there Saturday at 1 PM. Sponsored by the Chicago Poetry Project.

Dale

Posted by: Dale Poss on September 11, 2003 04:27 PM

Dale, how do you "take a poem by ITS terms", exactly? I know you're busy, but I don't know how this is done. The fundamental values I think Houlihan pointed toward included the pleasure of "logopeia" (which is cancelled both by obfuscation & by cliche-accessibility, as she showed pretty amusingly.

Every intepretation takes a position - when you "take" a poem, you establish terms by which it is received. If you claim transparency ("ITS terms") and deny it to others, what does this accomplish? Why are Houlihan's comments any more formulaic than your own?

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 04:35 PM

Henry,

I think what Dale is saying is that you take a poem by whatever its terms are even if the terms aren't clear or even there. I think that's pretty clear. Also, to move forward in freedom. I think that's what Skanky Possum is all about, you know, to "create a little flower is the labor of the ages" as he told Houlihan. How could anybody say it better than that? That was Blake. Also, "if you want specifics on these forces, find out yourself"--again, from Dale's kick-ass letter to Houlihan. "Educate yourself on the the diverse forms surrounding us." Isn't that enough?

Good luck in Chicago, Dale. May the "complex occasion of forces" be with you!

Kurt

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 04:48 PM

So Kurt, is it possible to find fault with a piece of writing? Are all poems equally valuable? Should I leave off reading Shakespeare & spend more time with Rod McKuen? Should I try to find as much thought/feeling/meaning in a car commercial or a bad imitation of Celan, than in Celan? Is this what "on its own terms" means?

Poetry & poetry mags may be a little flower of the ages' labor; but I would defend good criticism too, rather than outlaw it or render it meaningless.

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 04:59 PM

Henry, Pound was a great, generous and cantankerous reader of poems. Really, the model I prefer for making art and reading poems is that of the medieval artisan. In my case, if I write a review, say, I bring to that review all the tools in my kit at that moment. I listen to what the poem says and see how well it works according to what it claims vs. what it is. If it's so called experimental, I look at that, consider that particular tradition of poem making, and judge it by those terms as well perhaps as my own, which could be completely outside.

I'm just saying, you bring all of your self to a work, your own or another's. Anything short is not interesting. Nor is discursive writing. We'll explain ourselves into dust. We should seek instead an active intelligence--Houlihan lacks that, though you obviously disagree. But then, you seem to value more than I discursive writing. (Do you really find such discursiveness necessary and relevant?).

Anyway, my take is that "literary values" are not lasting, but transitory. They're what's at hand when you need them. It's mysterious. A great deal of mystery is involved, actually. But I think works do function by their own terms. Sometimes those terms are narrow and small minded. Sometimes they're great. But I try to deal with those terms.

It's funny. I've been writing reviews for a couple of years here in this pouch. I relate particular arguments according to the work at hand. There's been very little response to any of that. I write a quick letter to Houlihan and everyone has a great time diving into these generalities. I don't know if our conversations here are useful any longer. Perhaps it should turn to discursive vs. non-discursive approaches to critical writing. Explanation prevents movement.

Dale

Dale

Posted by: dale on September 11, 2003 05:04 PM

Cocks and a Partridge

A Cock-Master bought a Partridge, and turn’d it among his Fighting-Cocks, for them to feed together. The Cocks beat the Partridge away from their Meat, which she lay’d the more to Heart, because it look’d like an Aversion to her purely as a Stranger. But the Partridge finding these very Cocks afterwards cutting one another to pieces, she comforted her self with this thought, that she had no reason to expect they should be kinder to her, than they were to one another.

The Moral.

‘Tis no wonder to find those People troublesom to Strangers, that cannot agree among themselves. They quarrel for the Love of quarrelling; and the Peace be broken, no matter upon what Ground, or with whom.

Posted by: Aesop on September 11, 2003 05:18 PM

"Explanation prevents movement"! Yes!

Dale, before you go, *please* tell us how you take this poem, on what terms. Thanks!!!

Kurt

Have no


Nullarnee & Slavslatt

gris, gris, tenedor


(Ninakula, Ninakula)

forkyfull ort


Siwezi kusema Kiswahili!

Vipi? Nini? Nani? Ipi?


oaieyn as cooylyn


Faag eh!


And when it were a

_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 05:21 PM

Henry, I think the point Dale wants to make is that it doesn't matter what you read or write, there is no real value in making such binary decisions, that kind of thinking leads to things like wars. Every time you make a decision like that, you're saying something's better or worse, etc. So is it better to read Shakespeare than Rod McKuen (don't know this guy)? I think that's a question with a lot of answers, but none of them are really known. It's all kind of mysterious.

That kind of question sets up a "false reality", really.

Kurt

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 05:27 PM

Dale, I think the back-and-forth that’s sprung up here is great!  I don’t think it’s any slight to your reviews that the “generalities” under discussion here have elicited so much response.  Obviously, people have something at stake on either side, and even if Henry, say, never agrees with, for instance, Jonathan, the “discursiveness” on both sides isn’t entirely useless: it helps to clarify our own positions for ourselves, or at least to throw into relief the areas where clarity is an impossibility and supply some meta-clarity in that regard.  For example, it may never become “clear” what values are the right ones for judging a work of poetry, but we can become relatively clear on what is separating us from those whose values differ from ours.

That’s the issue that really interests me here: not “are the poems in Fence good or not,” not “is Rod McKuen as good as Shakespeare or vice versa,” but “what is it that makes both me and Joan Houlihan interested in poetry, and yet keeps us from ever seeing eye-to-eye on the terms for that interest”?

That and pointing out that Houlihan really is a terrible critic even on her own terms.  I’m more puzzled by Henry’s repeated insistence that there is some merit to her specific argumentation than by his sympathy for an oppositional stance towards experimental verse in general.  If put to the task, I could come up with a lot more coherent criticism of the avant-garde than what she offers.

Posted by: Kasey on September 11, 2003 06:46 PM

The Academickals want a nuanced consideration, contextualizing the groundbreaking verse of today within the fashionosophy of contemporary postpost-stopstoppism. The Poetickals want a nuanced impressionistic cloud-vapor critique, saluting their pioneering & inimitable Ways of Wording. Everybody, of course, wants positive feedback.

Houlihan is doing something else; she's satirizing the various slacknesses from the perspective of the Ignorant Reader.

Posted by: Henry Gould on September 11, 2003 07:16 PM

Kasey, thanks for your insightful comments. I agree it's good at times to work through certain positions. Especially in public. By addressing discursiveness, I guess I'm urging a swiftness of thought over the kind of gamesmanship Houlihan and Henry, so it seems, prefer.

Kurt, I don't know where to begin with that poem.

Dale

Posted by: Dale on September 11, 2003 07:52 PM

I think there is a High Modernism identifiable as such, in contrast to a Low (which I'm terming the Antipoetic). . . .

Low is obviously easier to read-and-understand than High. . . .
And many important poets of the 20th century have chosen the Low approach. . . .

Here's Rozewicz: "The more intricate, ornate and surprising the poem's exterior, the more dubious is its interior, the lyrical event, which often fails to penetrate the ornaments fabricated by the poet."

——You can agree with that, or argue against it, but I don't think you can deny that many major poets of the past century evince a similar esthetic. . . .

Just as an illustrative question, I'd like to ask Jonathan Mayhew why certain Spanish-language poets get translated and others don't. Parra and Angel Gonzalez have had at least two "Selecteds" apiece published in English, whereas the equally great (or perhaps greater) poetry of Jose Lezama Lima hasn't been similarly widely translated. . . .
Why is that? I mean, I suppose it could be copyright problems, our insane embargo of Cuba, etc., but I would venture to guess it's because Lezama Lima's High Modernist style (or HM content, the complexity of his metaphors and figurations) is much harder to translate than the Low Antipoetic of Parra and Gonzalez: less is lost in transferring the latter into English. Or is my reasoning nonsense. . ..

As for Olds and Collins, well, they sure don't write in a High Modernist mode, do they? In that sense, they're similar to Brecht and Szymborska et al. . . . Style is less important (not unimportant, but less important) than content to the Antipoet.

Sorry I can't respond to everyone who took the time and effort to consider my points which were (are) hurriedly and confusedly gathered. . .

Octavio Paz: "The history of modern poetry is that of the oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious temptation."

——Which I translate as the oscillation between Low Modernism (the Antipoetic) and High Modernism.

The religious temptation? I'll quote it again, since no one responded to it from before: here's the formula, the dictate as set down by Mallarme:
"Everything that wishes to remain holy must surround itself with mystery."

——For mystery read: difficulty, obscurity, etc., pronounced as such by Eliot in 1921, which none of the comments mentioned. Am I delusional in thinking that the Open Letter to Houlihan simply parrots the same position promulgated by Eliot back then? There are no similarities at all? The clarioncall for difficulty and complexity is different now than then????

To the extent that poetry manifests the High Modernist mode, it is attempting to "remain holy," cloistered, sancrosanct, autotelic, separate from the empirical everyday world, in a puristic world of its own where the New Critics of the Yale Review (a typical SoQ mag) and the Denver Quarterly (a typical SoN mag, though you will probably disagree) can admire it from afar. . .

One more quote: this is Michael Hamburger describing the esthetic of Nicanor Parra:
"Parra's anti-poems are distinguished by their cultivation and penetration of ordinariness, by a diction deliberately quotidian. . . ."

Sorry, but I can't see much diff between the SoN's and the SoQ's: they're equally elitist, purist, mirror versions of the High Modernist mode. . . .

We need more poets like Parra and Brecht, more Low Moderns. . . .

Posted by: Bill Knott on September 11, 2003 08:00 PM

"Kurt, I don't know where to begin with that poem."

Dale, why not?

Posted by: Kurt on September 11, 2003 08:23 PM

Well, the reasons low modernists get translated are as Bill K. suggests. Angel González in my view is a detestable poet. I like Parra, but his influence has led to a deadly colloquialism in Latin American poetry. Surely this low modernist mode has seen better days, whether here or abroad.

The comparison between Collins and Brecht is far fetched. I wouldn't put those two in the same conversation. Because neither is high modernist? That doesn't make them similar in any other respect.

Posted by: Jonathan Mayhew on September 11, 2003 08:23 PM

I guess a distinction can be made between the varying (and mixed) impulses to writing poetry--from what I've read of Billy Collins, there seems to be an action or an idea, and then he precedes to describe the above, and provide his take on it. Fine. I don't know if there's anything inherently wrong with the above impulse--perhaps Allen Grossman does the same, except instead of fusing a plain style with vapid thinking, Grossman fuses a little higher style (but still relatively clear) with what I think is visionary content. On the other hand, there's someone like Rosmarie Waldrop, who professes to write from a sort of nothingness, and says "I have no thoughts, so I have methods." So the poem is an exploratory act--the difficulty of the poem seems embedded in the process of its writing. It's not like she's cloaking in mystery what could otherwise be clear.

Posted by: Tony Tost on September 11, 2003 08:27 PM

Collins probably PROCEEDS to recount events and ideas, etc. Geesh, I shouldn't try to sound smart.

Posted by: Tony on September 11, 2003 08:45 PM

interesting how the discussion moves in this here box...anyway, I think the idea of a poetics of say upper level clarity, lower level opacity or vice-versa, or faux-opacity, or for that matter faux-clarity, is, in a way, too dismissive of the overall universal applicability, and, perhaps, to some, the importance of Keats' old: Negative Capability...

"that is, when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason-Coleridge, for instance, would let go by a fine isolated verisimilitude caught from the Penetralium of mystery, from being incapable of remaining content with half-knowledge. This pursued through volumes would perhaps take us no further than this, that with a great poet the sense of Beauty overcomes every other consideration, or rather obliterates all consideration."

I mean doesn't a poem by an "anti-poet" or "low modernist" or SoQ or whatever have some of that sense, or strive towards that sense, of inhabiting the mystery in the whole of the piece...ie. how the (somewhat)narrative unfolding of a Simic poem functions to push the poem, in it's entirety, into NEG CAP while all the juxtaposition/parataxis/new sentence-dance-moves of My Life and whatnot have that NEG CAP in every line...or between every line....ah, or something...

Posted by: noah eli gordon on September 11, 2003 09:37 PM

In the County vein...this whole discussion has called to my mind a Pollack exhibit I saw 10 years ago in NYC. Never much of a fan I was fascinated to see all of his old journals & sketch books on display. They were packed with figure studies & still lifes that were close to photographic in their rendering. For me, at 18 it provided "a way into" his abstract work that had up until that point completely confounded me & as a result made me angry.

This idea that, poets of the (what are we calling them now?) post-avant-avant schoolitude are concerned with only making meaningless poems interests me the same way Pollack did after seeing his early works. Pollack went to school & learned the basics much like an aspiring poet can learn "how to write poetry" through an MFA program or a Houlihan-type seminar...in short, Pollack was the first to illustrate for me the idea of learning the rules before you break them. I imagine for Pollack the rules bored him after a point...while he could have spent his life exquisitely rendering bowls of fruit he had a desire to think outside of the contrived idea of "fine art". And the result was....well, we all saw the movie.

I am not saying that Fence or SP is packed with the future Pollack-poets of the world, but that the most interesting contemporary poets seems to write from an educated (I don't mean academia here...I think that many poets are naturally gifted with much of what creative writing courses claim to "teach") & highly skilled place with the acute awareness of what exactly they are writing against.

The idea that these poets just arbitrarily pick words and string them together as Joan suggests, reminds me of my early problems of Pollack..."Would it make any difference if he used red instead of yellow there?" "I could do that too...just give me a ladder and a shitload of paint." But after seeing his sketch books & journals I realized that Pollack was painting from a place beyond the standard issue understanding of what “art” is. But the idea that his years of schooling & practice did not play a huge part in the beauty and genius of his abstract work is ludicrous.

Had I NOT gone to that exhibit and seen Pollack's early studies I wonder if my adolescent feelings toward his work would have ever changed? I think they would have eventually...but I worry that Joan has fixed herself so severely in her stance of what is “correct” that she is no longer able to enter any poetry that strives to go beyond that set of limitations, and THAT is what makes her unable to see eye to eye with anyone not working within her idea of what poetry is, or should do. Pollack’s talent was his ability to use the very thing he wished to paint against to illustrate his point...great art requires not only an artist of great scope but also a public open to the experience of that all-inclusive vision.

Posted by: meng on September 11, 2003 10:18 PM

Bill, the elitism argument is like the meaning vs. meaninglessness debate: a screen or, really, a deadend. I mean, in America, anybody that moves on with their thought at a level beyond the 8th grade can be viewed as an elitist. What if you imagined the highest intelligence you can and wrote to that instead of some abstract mass audience? Brecht was a great ideologue. He's never been a favorite poet of mine. I never cared for that missionary zeal of social conversion.

Is DH Lawrence a low or high modern? What about Blake for that matter?

I think about what you, Henry and others have said here, and it leads me to think that there can only be personal criteria or whatever for a life practice in art. Social or group demands for what a poem should be or isn't ("literary values") promotes personal limitations.

For what it's worth....

Dale

PS: Kurt, I'm not interested in that poem. B-C me if it's all that important....

Posted by: Dale on September 11, 2003 10:48 PM

Dale, your last post is reasonable and useful.

Art is one of the only places left where we can hope to be free of conformity.

Poetry is difficult. Even without all these entirely artificial isms and schisms clotting our thinking, poetry is not easy.

Joan Houlihan will go away. They always do. Eventually.

Posted by: some white guy on September 11, 2003 11:32 PM

THE POSSUM THEORY OF POETRY

According to the "mind" of Dale "Oops-I-Almost-Said-Something-Intelligent" Possum, everything he and his self-serving circus of friends write is just as valuable as a child's sneeze of nasal-stuffed word balls onto a sheet of glue-coated paper.

It all reminds one of the many bogus and self-serving arguments of abstract expressionist parrots (looking to make a name) that went on for years in NYC even after it was demonstrated that chimps with hole-punched buckets could do every bit as well as ae "artists."

This bs is no different. It's pathetic. And now we have this monstrosity of un-language by the stupid Kurt:

Faag eh!

And when it were a

_Ro(µñ¯¢)

=M

What manure! Hah! What kind of moron promotes this swill? The Possum Posse? Well, all I gotta say is:

DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS DALE?

DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU F**K POETRY IN THE ASS?

Go back and review your word slobbery, uh, Dale (named after Roy Roger's wife) and get a therapist to read it, and why you're at it, take these "theory" cretin buddies of yours, pack them into a few iron barrels, seal them with torches, and then depthcharge them into the Pacific, about 100 miles out.

Okay?


Posted by: Tom Mazzioti on September 11, 2003 11:34 PM

Tom Mazziotti will go away, too.

Dale, you just stick to the courage of your convictions. You and Hoa do good work. That's more than enough.

Posted by: some white guy on September 11, 2003 11:39 PM

"Dale, you just stick to the courage of your convictions."

But what ARE his convictions??? Other than anti-someone else's convictions? That's what I keep trying to find out...

Dale won't tell me why he thinks the poem I posted here isn't worthy of response, or "interesting" so I can't figure out what he looks for, what are his "convictions" about a poem??

Still wondering....


Posted by: Kurt on September 12, 2003 12:33 AM


"And now we have this monstrosity of un-language by the stupid Kurt"

Thanks.

Posted by: Kurt on September 12, 2003 01:26 AM

I had to laugh at the open letter to Joan HulaHoop or whatever her name is, and the subsequent discussion is quite interesting (for awhile) though it does start to degenerate.

In any case I have devised a game which might perhaps liven things up again, or maybe it won't.

Either way, this debate reminds me of a world-class figure-skating competition, and it might be interesting to consider recruiting 5 people who care nothing whatsoever about poetry to act as judges.

The score should be calibrated according to a 1-10 standard with 10 being superior, and actual elements of discourse should be divided as well into three categories as follows:

1: Goes for the jugular - how quickly is the opponent rendered senseless (or were they that way to begin with)?

2: Stays on topic - is the writer really discussing the topic at hand or is he (or, more rarely, she) simply posturing, twisting the topic around to focus instead upon him or her self?

3: Has sex appeal - is any animal magnetism evident in the writing, or is that just a bad odor?

Other that that there is only one rule: whiners are not to be tolerated and are automatically penalized. Whoever it was, for example, that complained about “kick ass” is nothing but a whiner, and he is thereby penalized. From now on he is not allowed to use the vowel “I”.*

With each subsequent violation of the whining rule, the amount of letters removed from the whiners available stock will double, and the vowels go first. In this way, (and it won’t take long) he who cannot get over acting like a cry baby will soon be rendered speechless; nevertheless, should he recover in time, he will still be allowed to grunt.

Unlike the war in Iraq, this game is subject to revision. Any suggestions to that effect are more than welcome.

*Since the rules were not in effect when the complaint about “kick ass” was registered, the perpetrator is still allowed to use the letter “I”, but in the future, he had better take care.

I wish everybody the best of luck,
Stephen

Posted by: Stephen Kirbach on September 12, 2003 02:00 AM

Dale's convictions are in plain sight. All you have to do is read Possum Pouch, and you will see them.

Posted by: some white guy on September 12, 2003 02:36 AM

Dale's Convictions (from the letter to Hooligan)

Conviction 1. "..obsession with meaning and coherence is foolish when we're saturated at every moment with an over abundance and over statement of meaning and coherence. Perhaps, actually, it's only in meaninglessness new life and energy will emerge from the dead weight our culture sloughs."

Translation: There is currently too much meaning in the world, especially here, in America. We need more meaninglessness, only then will we get "new life and energy." Therefore, meaningless poems are important, even critical, because without chaos you can't get order and without discarded matter you can't have compost and grow new and vital things. We need meaningless poems to serve as incubators for the next, more advanced type of super-meaningful poem. However, it's not promised when the new race of poems will appear.

Conviction 2. "A day after George Bush sold us more security in the Middle East for 87 billion dollars I see nothing but dementia on the domestic landscape. Halliburton's "meaning" and "coherence" escalates a decline in human relations, meaningful or not—whatever your definition. What is meaningful in a post-human, post-American global economy fuelled by fear, terror and authoritarian claims on personal and domestic rights? From the academic halls to the littered bus stop behind our house, we live in a nation really beyond dementia. We're in retreat from reality because it's hideous to behold. And if poetry begins to look more and more like the complicated screens on CNN, it's because that's the world most people live in."

Translation: The world is a demented, ugly and dishonest place and poems that don't reflect that are not worthwhile because that's not the way people live now. The poem must be a mirror to this, a reflection in a bloodshot eye. If poetry starts looking like CNN it's because it has to, because that's the station most people watch now.


Conviction 3. "I often wonder how an adult in this country can still be so afraid of issues of economy, politics, the occult and anything else located in the particularities of our moment in history."

Translation: Dale feels that an adult who may have once been afraid, shouln't continue to be afraid of certain things or of anything located in the particularities of our moment in history. Only children should be afraid of these things, or confused about where they are located.


Conviction 4. "Poetry is a complex occasion of forces. Those forces alone drive and determine the poem. Anything short of those diverse forces fail totally to engage in language at this point."


Translation: There are certain forces that make a poem, and these are the only forces that can really succeed in engaging language. These forces are both complex and diverse. Dale will not waste his time telling people what he thinks these forces are, they should find out for themselves, create their own "little flower" as Blake says.

Summary:

Dale believes poems that aspire to be meaningful are doomed to fail because the world itself is not meaningful. Not only that, but the aspiration itself is wrong and "mainstream" and "static" even a kind of Death (or academic conference, whichever comes first). If you wish to know more than that, find out for yourself, he's busy packing.

Posted by: brian keefe on September 12, 2003 03:33 AM

my question to you, dale,
is why joan's article bothers you so much? i am confused as to why these avant circles are so touchy when it comes to criticism of what they are doing. just curious.

Posted by: sandra simonds on September 12, 2003 04:37 AM

Have never run across a poem devoid of meaning, whether by Barry Watten, Barbara Barg, Bill Knott (hi bill), or Barry Manilow, no matter how high, low, avant or not.

Not to be too William James about it, but seems to me we can face new language with either a sense of wonder or with an ontological wonder-sickness. Either way, if wonder is not there, it is not the author's fault. I don't mean to sound precious but I have been meditating a lot recently: Whether you are post-avant, a po-savant or just a piss-ant, I adore you darling.

I am having an altercation with a conchologist, not that anyone cares.

Gabe

Posted by: Gabe Gudding on September 12, 2003 05:22 AM

Your altercation with the conchologist fills me with wonder.

Posted by: Tony Tost on September 12, 2003 08:16 AM

I hope he doesn't rename his shell blog "Poetics" -- he could mess up a generation of budding poets!

And now he's really going to be angry:

If you google his name and conchology, the first thing that comes up is not:

"Richard L. Goldberg is a mail order shell dealer with a strong interest in terrestrial, as well as marine shells. He has authored many popular articles on land shells. His photographs of living exotic snails have appeared in books and magazines, and his slide presentations on conchology are familiar to many shell clubs around the country. He is a Past President of COA, Past Editor of the COA Bulletin (currently American Conchologist), and Past Publications Chair of COA. Rich's professional background is as a television writer/producer/ director (he produced the first one hour television magazine-format video dealing with conchology.) His recent introduction to Indonesia has convinced him to spend more time researching the variability of Amphidromus."
[http://coa.acnatsci.org/conchnet/gold697a.html#rich]

No, the first thing that comes up now is Gabe's blog.

If you're reading this, Rich, let us know what you think of Joan's article.

Posted by: Eeksy-Peeksy on September 12, 2003 09:26 AM

Hi Dale and Hoa. I hope Chicago was good. Here, wow: 66+ responses--but has anyone heard a response from Houlihan, or does she just dump on folks and hide out? Maybe if she'd try a little *respons*-ible rhetoric in the form of dialogue, she'd come to understand more or better about poetry?

Posted by: chris murray on September 14, 2003 08:53 AM

Belatedly, thanks for writing such an impassioned and comprehensive response to something that invoked from me, as usual, invective and, my real favorite, ad hominem counterattack. I was like, "Joan Houlihan, you're a total retard." Glad to hear you give Fence its due inocuousness.

Sincerely,

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Editor, Fence and Fence Books

Posted by: Rebecca Wolff on September 15, 2003 06:13 PM

i love poetic controversies! it's the only
time people get excited about what poets do!

if it is not self-evident that "realism"
& "clarity" & suchlike, are merely CONVENTIONS
OF REPRESENTATION, this means you are not
conversant with the multitude of possible
conventions as practiced in other places
& times, & are therefore unequipped to have
an opinion on the matter.

words have DENOTATION & CONNOTATION, & some
poems operate primarily on one or the other,
& some on both at once. plus, the human mind
cannot look at a row of random words without
creating some sort of relation between them,
whether of relevance, tone, or grammatical
relation. if a poet wishes to explore this
dimension, BE BRAVE, DO SO. maybe you will
produce something dull & maybe something
interesting; but it is idiotic to deny that
poet the chance to make the experiment.

m.

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Give the woman credit! Didn't she at least entertain you for a moment? She had me giggling like a schoolgirl...

Or, to be perfectly honest, the people whose gushing emails she chose to post as responses to her articles gave me more than a few laughs. Most notable among them (for me at least):

"Too often poets, apparently trying to emulate Eliot and his ilk, deliberately court obscurity and obliqueness in their attempt to give their poem intellectual weight and profundity."

(Eliot!)

or

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I actually thought for a moment I was reading a literary version of "The Onion", but alas, no.

Posted by: tonio on September 16, 2003 02:03 PM

Indignation rouses polemical energies, but then discussion is shadowed by doubt that game is worth the candle. Simplistic terms of objectionable asertions are noted. But what about this: though of course there are value judgments made when one E-mental poem is chosen for publication or praise instead of another, these criteria vary greatly and are infrequently discussed (or maybe they are). there is more emphasis on how the poem fits into a historical narrative about poetry. Poetry is rejected because, say, second generation NY School style written by poet X years old is not historically interesting; poems assume the existence of a unitary identity; poems don't fit the magazine's definition of avant-garde. To what extent is the "evocative power" of the poem's language considered? Are the reader-response arguments which are made for experimental poems, i.e. Reader becomes conscious of x or y or is no longer so sure about b or c, are these responses confined to discursive intellect? Is a poem's "energy of language" too suspect/subjective a criterion? Also, considering that major change in literature often includes an argument for the treatment of new content as well as the freedom of form (I'm trying to think of the title of Virginia Woolf's short essay that argued for new content and consciousness in fiction-- "Mr. and Mrs. .......), has experimental poetry reduced more than enlarged possibilities for content? When writers are derided for calling something language poetry when so obviously it is not (what a rube), isn't this redolent of the guarding of the secrets of the academy in order to use knowledge as a mark of superiority? Doesn't it also suggest that originators are to have continued sway over the meaning of the ter language poetry? Haven't names like this always evolved (from put-downs to neutral naming, for example)?

It would be nice if people didn't go away with all their knowledge and energy too soon, but took up up whatever better terms of discussion or debate. Floyd, an interested amateur

Posted by: floyd on September 16, 2003 08:13 PM

Well damn, Floyd (above) didn't mean to lay a wet blanket on kindling thought. Floyd himself is perpetually troubled by questions of class, identity, sexuality, language, meaning, form, and their myriad intersections, and has opted for strange-meaning for a decade. Not a scholar, he has the autodidact's craving for discussion of topics wrestled with in isolation (and accompanying tendency to dramatize minor quirks). Thank-you, Floyd.

Posted by: floyd on September 17, 2003 02:01 AM

Many thanks for taking the time to so wonderfully unseat Ms. Houlihan.

Best,
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Rancho Loco Press
Dallas

Posted by: Joe Ahearn on September 17, 2003 05:55 PM

Is anyone going to address the issue raised in Houihan's essay? I notice she's posted blog comments on the "readers speak" link to her essay, divided into "postitive", "negative" and "unintelligible."


http://webdelsol.com/LITARTS/Boston_Comment/Letters.htm


It looks like most of dale's writing ends up as "unintelligible" and I have to agree with that, actually. What does he have to say about the actual points she raises anyway? A lot of what's been said here seems completely off the point and angry. Why all the anger? Why not answer the actual argument? How about someone here taking on the main point of her essay, that a poem should have meaning, however broadly you want to define that--can anyone here speak to that issue?

Also, is it possible that the poem example she uses is as incoherent as it seems? Someone on another blog suggested that the poem was "about" meaninglessnes--but if that's all it's about then it's just like hundreds of thousands of others, all about the same thing: "meaninglessness." Are all meaningless poems about one thing? Does that mean a boring poem is about boredom?

Kind of a boring (and ridicuous) idea, but who knows.

Kurt

Posted by: kurt on September 18, 2003 02:23 AM

Houlihan et al: Get a life.

Dale

Posted by: Poss D on September 18, 2003 05:44 AM


Hmmm. A well-reasoned, thoughtful response as usual...

Posted by: kurt on September 18, 2003 08:20 PM

Here's a late assessment, it came to me while reading the responses on the Web del Sol site to Joan Houlihan's articles. Until the most recent flood of criticism from dissenting readers involved in experimental poetry, the comments are filled with lavish gratitude, and many times over she is thanked. So what exactly are those people thanking her for? It's for being giving permission not to read experimental poetry, the people who don't want to look more carefully at it are relieved of the burden to pay attention by her authority. (Other articles in the series give permission not to read James Tate's last five books, etc.) Literary environments are filled with texts readers are "supposed" to read, and to be able to dismiss large portions of that serves a purpose for some readers, an excuse. This is Houlihan's critical function, as her arguments are apparently not considerate enough nor are they intended to convince anybody already interested/involved in experimental poetry how mistaken they are.

-Michael

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