TF: In reviews of your work, Forrest Gander and Donald Revell count you among several experimental poets who have recently revitalized narrative possibilities. "Apartment," one of the longer poems in Human Rights (Cambridge: Zoland, 1998), definitely has that narrative impetus.
JL: In "Apartment," I’m trying to make experience actual in a construct of words. (I learn that phrase from Robert Creeley.) I try to critique the construction of the lyric "I"; I try to show how the lyric "I" is embedded in cultural politics. I try to explore the absence of community, to tell the story of the need for community.
TF: What you call "critique" can be associated with both the heart of lyricism and the self-critical or speculative strain within postmodern lyric. This story-telling does not supply a "master narrative" that would stymie the kind of critical challenge you speak of; partial narratives are able to produce strong effects in a collagistic field.
JL: I love collage, for example, in Jasper Johns' paintings, but in "Apartment," I think more about scene structure. This is a lyric sequence. This is deliberate. I wouldn't move the sections of "Apartment" around; they're moving, they're in motion, and together, in sequence, they create an emotional trajectory.
TF: In collage, one might say that the temporality of visual or literary reading is less important than an instant of juxtaposition. Even if I don’t read collage that way, I can appreciate how your emphasis on the flux of potential and actual emotions within "landscapes" of a fluid but somewhat identifiable socius calls for different terminology.
Various narrative moments in "Apartment" always speak to and with other poetic modes, as well as other narratives. I'm thinking, for example, of the relation between the first two sections: the encounter of the "I" and the homeless man who can’t stop talking, and the one- or two-sentence stories about unfulfilled characters in the prose section that follows.
JL: That is very close to the way I feel about the poem now and to what I was thinking when I wrote it. The different sections of the poem create/enact an emotional trajectory. Lyric structure becomes dramatic action. And that action, for me, becomes storytelling.
TF: When narrative is juxtaposed with a passage of lyric introspection or that involving a lyric "I" engaged in social address, in a sense the "emotional trajectory" from one to another "is" the story itself.
JL: The music of the poem (sequence, temporal form) enacts an emotional trajectory, makes experience actual in a construct of words. For me the process has a narrative dimension. The narrative dimension is part of the poem's capacity for critique.
TF: Lyric structure is not confined to the single, singular speaker. It allows for multiple voices, and the musical and conceptual interaction of their different perspectives presents dramatic action.
JL: Yes, absolutely. And the music creates scene structure.
TF: This kind of narrative may relate to Language poetry.
JL: Sure. I did write "Apartment" while I was working on a dissertation that included discussion of Susan Howe, Charles Bernstein, Barrett Watten. At a certain point in the eighties, Leslie Scalapino was huge for me. At its best, Language poetry draws you in. It's like dance music. I think I learned that kind of involvement—involving the reader in the dance—from Language poetry (along with other sources). Cage and Thoreau are also very important to "Apartment."
TF: Does the Orphic experience of loss enter into the "dance" of your lyricism?
JL: Yes. I do feel haunted by Orpheus. By the various versions of loss. A layer of electricity breathes in everyday life. Thoreau: "Actually the laboring man has not leisure for a true integrity day by day." Has anyone in America the leisure for a true integrity? Thoreau: "He has no time to be anything but a machine." We locate this problem inside: in our inner lives we are machines, we are blind, we have no true integrity. Or even worse: we have true integrity and we are poisoning it, wasting it, ignoring it, blinding ourselves to it. One story: the only way to be honest is to be haunted. The haunted person recognizes that s/he is cursed, recognizes that s/he has done something terrible, even if s/he has at present no idea what the crime might be.
TF: "Apartment" is certainly a poem of many honestly haunted voices. The speaker in the first section, haunted by the evidently homeless man who utters rage but can't listen, is suddenly concerned about his insight into the degree of his own relative integrity and his uses of it. To avoid dialogue, he's moved away from the talking man, but the man goes after someone else, "spraying/ a hex at him," and it's a displacement of the hex that could be sprayed at the speaker himself. After being confronted by other narratives that bespeak isolation and insufficient community in U.S. society, we can go back to this incident and ask whether it's the individual or the collective arrangement that is primarily responsible for the "crime."
JL: Ralph Ellison wrote that in twentieth-century (naturalist) fiction, American ideals collapse under the weight of history (of historical amnesia, the refusal to acknowledge racism). I would like to bring Ellison's argument to bear on Postmodern American poetry. Ellison is arguing with Hemingway, but he might as well as be arguing with Ashbery. Even when we resist what Michael Harper calls America's "historical amnesia," American poets write inside a cultural/symbolic mode. Language poetry, wonderful as it is at times, doesn't get outside that mode. I re-read The Scarlet Letter recently, and I thought of Sacvan Bercovitch saying, "There is no position outside ideology." But there is resistance.
I think we need (for one thing) to explore some of the possibilities that Robert Creeley and Robert Duncan open. Serial form tells a story slant, shatters the story and re-shapes it. Creeley is thinking about the real. He has faith in the poem even when he is questioning everything.
TF: "Slivovitz," another long poem in Human Rights, speaks directly to a faith in the attempt to approach the real, even as many versions are questioned: "The sun we see/ is not the real sun." Resisting many American Jews' relative "amnesia" about the holocaust, the poem juxtaposes narratives reflecting the direct and highly mediated encounters (and deflected encounters) of Jews of several generations with this unbearable event.
In general, in your writing, I read the lyric I's resistance to totalizing effects of dominant culture as allowing the subject its places rather than one place. Narrative involves ongoing dialogue about the implications of such locations.
JL: I love that. Places rather than place. In confessional poetry often you get self transformed into landscape—Lowell and Bishop. I think of self and places in Whitman, Lorca, Celan. There's no a central place, and there's not an end. No telos. Magic (I could have said the sublime) involves fragmentation of self.
TF: Divergent aspects of the environment keep reshaping the self's possibilities. "Magic" might be the pleasure of surprising recognitions and the effort to abide by the poetic ethics that we've been outlining.
I'd like to hear your thoughts about one of your most overtly narrative and place-oriented poems, "Essay on Addiction." For me, it's about a love relationship that must get beyond the "ghost" of patriarchy or die. In that poem, the Gothic "haunted house" is a place that must be demystified so that other, as yet unspecified places can be explored.
JL: I want the sense there of a nightmare. But even though it's known—it is becoming. And two people stumbling through a recurring nightmare. But she is the one who knows the story. And she is the one for whom it is becoming. It was very important for me to create a character in that poem—a strong protagonist. We see through her eyes.
TF: Poems like "Essay on Addiction" and "The Room" offer feminist counter-narratives. What writers have influenced you to do this?
JL: There are too many; any list is incomplete. I could start with Jean Rhys—she has a huge power for me. And Stein, of course. Susan Howe and Adrienne Rich. Definitely some of the women poets of my generation who I've been reading for years: (my wife) Donna de la Perriere, Larissa Szporluk, Laura Mullen, Lisa Jarnot. I was socialized as "male"; I try to critique and re-shape my self. It happens in a flow, in poem after poem.
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